38 Special, Clays, Starting Load = Squib

[wrangler5]

Had a strange experience today - the first time I've experienced this. I loaded up some 38 Specials with Rainier 125g RNFP plated bullets and Clays powder. Based on the data sheet downloaded recently from Hodgdon's web site, for "125gr Cast LRNFP" I loaded rounds at 2.5, 2.8, 3.1 and 3.4g of powder, 2.5 being the starting load and 3.5 given as the max.

The first shot of the 2.5g loads was a squib - bullet stuck about half way down the barrel of my 7.5 inch Single Action Army. Well I was SURE I had powder in all of the cases (I charged all of these rounds with a Redding bench mounted measure and looked into the cases as they sat in the loading block before putting the bullet in - I actually put a double charge in one case, just to see if I could notice the difference during a visual inspection, then dumped that case and recharged it properly.) But, on the chance I had in fact missed a case I fired another one (after driving the stuck bullet out with a brass rod.) Squib, again.

I gave up on the 2.5g load as a bad job, and went to the 2.8g loads. First one - squib. Drive the bullet out and give up on the 2.8s as well.

The 3.1 and 3.4g loads all pushed the bullet out the barrel, but not very fast. The Hodgdon data sheet says 3.5g of Clays should push a 125g lead bullet to 978fps, but in my gun 3.4g only clocked 717fps (average for 10 shots.)

When I got home I pulled the bullets from all of the unfired 2.5 and 2.8g loads. All were charged, and the several that I measured from each load were right on the money.

Rainier says to use lead bullet loading data for their bullets. I've never experienced this situation before, with Rainier or any other bullet - the starting load would ALWAYS at least push the bullet out the barrel.

Anybody else ever experience this? Anybody have a suggestion for why it happened? (I'm wondering if the Hodgdon data is just off - Clays is slower than Titegroup, and generally you use larger charges of slower powders, but the recommended starting load for the same bullet with Titegroup is 3.2g, compared to 2.5g for Clays.)

 

[Steve C]

Clays is slower than Titegroup

FYI: According to Hodgdon's burn rate chart where the lower number is the faster powder Clays is #6, Red Dot is #7, Bullseye is #9, and Tightgroup is #10 so they rate Clays as being faster.

I could be that Hodgdon's on line data has a miss calculated start load and from your experience is likely. The maximum load is listed at 3.5grs which seems consistent with other published data I have and normally a start load is a 10% reduction. That should make the calculated start load 3.1grs. Generally fast powders have a very small range of charge weight to use and a full grain seems excessive.

 

[Skip_a_roo]

Don't assume too much from your experience. I.e., load more Clays into the case than suggested. Clays is one of those powders that its pressure range is not linear at all. A small overcharge and the pressure goes up exponentially.

Don't try to match their velocity either. You have to print out their data to find out all of the particulars of each load, such as primer type and barrel length. Usually, they are a bit optimistic about velocity, or so it seems, until you look at the barrel length. Usually it is longer than the one you are using!

Steve is right on how to determine a minimum load. One thing to remember, you need to match their OAL too. The thing about OAL though is you have to have the same bullet OAL to achieve near the same pressure they did. Not all bullets of the same weight are the same length. That means, at the same cartridge OAL more or less of the bullet will be in the case. That is one of the major things the powder really cares about, free space inside the case. Internal ballistics. External ballistics is something we care about!

I have shot agains folks trying to make the lightest pop possible in 38spl. They chose Clays and a 125gr LRNFP to do just that. Their load never went below 3.0gr. It was like shooting a big 22LR.

Be safe, have fun!

 

[LiveLife]

Since OAL of the test rounds was not mentioned, if the OAL was longer than indicated on the published load data, it may have contributed to lower chamber pressure that resulted in squib rounds at lower charges.

For 125 gr LRNFP, Hodgdon website lists 1.445" OAL.

If the OAL used was longer than this at lower charges, you would end up with below starting pressures.

Also, how much and what type of crimping were used on the test rounds? Were they taped crimped or roll crimped? And how much?

 

[Walkalong]

It takes more powder with plated bullets to match the velocities of lead. I am not surprised at all that the light charges caused a squib. As posted, Clays is faster than Titegroup.

Nothing harmed, you started low to be safe and paid close attention when you fired them. Good job there being aware of the squib. You learned how low not to go, and where you need to be to start with your bullets at your O.A.L..

I use more than 3.5 grs Clays with the Berrys 125 Gr TrFP (not suggesting you do), but feel quite certain 3.5 will get the Ranier bullets out of the barrel with no problem.

 

[wrangler5]

Thanks, all. I was looking at a burn rate chart I'd found on line at http://www.reloadersnest.com/burnrates.asp last year, which listed Titegroup at #25 and Clays at #30 (slower). But I see Hodgdon's chart has 'em reversed, as Steve C pointed out. And bds, my OAL was 1.449 (a bit longer than specified). I use a Lee factory crimp die which I believe does a roll crimp on 38 Specials - there is a very slight indentation from the case mouth on the bullets I pulled.

I never expect to duplicate the velocities I see in loading charts, as my components and gun never match exactly those listed. I was just surprised to see squibs at recommended starting pressures. (A few years ago I went looking for the lightest load that would work in my Makarov - from the recommended starting load of 3.6g of Accurate #2 I worked down to 2.1g and was still getting reliable ejection, but feeding was getting flaky and it wouldn't lock open after the last round. Admittedly that's a much smaller case, but you can see that I was WAY below starting loads and bullets were still going out the barrel.)

I'm not looking to maximize velocity with these loads. My Single Action is from 1896 and has a black powder frame, although the barrel and cylinder were replaced in the 1950s with new Colt parts, so they're modern steel. But there will be no loads beyond the recommended maximums with any powder. Not even +P loads. And I think I'll go to some slower powders that produce lower pressures even at their maximum loads, like Titegroup or maybe even Trail Boss.

I sent a copy of my original post to Hodgdon for their info. Will be interesting to see if they end up changing their chart at some point.

 

[ReloaderEd]

We are reading about more and more problems with Hogdon powers. H322 blows primer pockets in 223 Remington loads, clays powder, etc.
I am going to stick to the IMR powders and good old bullseye. But I still run a test on each new lot of powder and primers. be safe

 

[wrangler5]

Maybe I'll just go back to Accurate powders, that I've used for years for most of my pistol loads. Used to use #5 for just about everything but full magnum loads. They meter well and are usually available locally.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

[LiveLife]

wrangler5:
Maybe I'll just go back to Accurate powders, that I've used for years for most of my pistol loads. Used to use #5 for just about everything but full magnum loads. They meter well and are usually available locally.

Wait, before you abandon the Hodgdon ship, why not give W231/HP38 a try. It is my designated target load powder and meters very well and becoming more available (Powder Valley has #8 jug for $108 for HP38).

It has broad load range with little pressure spike issues like other powders and a ton of available load data. From the posts I read, AA #5 looks to be a good powder though.

 

[rcmodel]

Anybody have a suggestion for why it happened?

1. Using starting load grease lubed lead bullet data with higher friction plated bullets.
2. Long 7 1/2" barrel creates more bore friction.
3. Possibly excess barrel/cylinder gap, or loose chamber throats in the SAA losing pressure?

Lyman #49 shows a 120 grain (125 when lubed) cast lead starting load of 2.9 Clays only giving 10,600 CUP pressure.
Max load of 3.3 gives 15,300 CUP.

rc

 

[wrangler5]

Those might be common factors, rcmodel, but Hodgdon's data is from a 7.7 inch barrel, and my barrel/cylinder gap is a snug 0.0015 on all chambers. I have no chamber throat data.

Most likely it's a combination of (1) the plated bullets being stickier than lead, even though Rainier says to start with lead data, and (2), and most important, the starting load shown on the chart I used was just too low to begin with.

My other alternative would have been to use Rainier's advice to take jacketed bullet load info and reduce it 10%. Looking at Hodgdon's table for their 125g XTP bullet (jacketed) shows a starting load of Clays of 3.5g, and reducing that 10% would have gotten me to a starting load of 3.1g, as Steve C's reply suggested.

Live and learn.

 

[rcmodel]

It is doubtful if Hodgdons 7.7" pressure test barrel has a cylinder gap, or a loose cylinder throat.

rc

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Clays does not meter well at the low charge weights associated with .38 Special target loads. I stopped using Clays for that reason. Clays is a very fast powder that can spike pressures when near the top end of the pressure range too. It's clean and accurate but the problems around it outweigh the benefits IMO.

W231/HP-38 is a GREAT .38 Special powder. (and for a lot of other calibers too) I use W231 almost exclusively for my .38 Special ammo. It produces very accurate ammo, it meters extremely well and it's very clean, what's not to like?

I use W231/HP-38 for the .38 Special, .38 S&W, .45 Auto, .45 Colt and 9mm.

 

[wrangler5]

Hodgdon Follow Up

I sent Hodgdon a copy of my original post and thought the reply might be of interest:

Our data is not for plated bullets. It is for cast lead bullets. What’s the difference? The cast bullet has a crimp groove that will take a good roll crimp. Your loads have either no crimp or not enough crimp. The bullets are moving too easily and too soon dropping the pressure and stopping the powder from burning. You may not be able to crimp enough in a plated bullet with no crimp groove to get proper combustion of the powder. Your best option is to try a Lee Factory Crimp Die. This collet die may get enough crimp on your plated bullet to help.

Get a cast bullet like the recipe calls for and roll crimp into the crimp groove and you will get proper performance with the starting loads.

Mike Daly
Customer Satisfaction Manager
The Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants
Hodgdon Smokeless Powders
Winchester Legendary Propellants
IMR Propellants
Pyrodex
Triple Seven
Goex Black Powder

 

[Walkalong]

Our data is not for plated bullets. It is for cast lead bullets. What’s the difference? The cast bullet has a crimp groove that will take a good roll crimp. Your loads have either no crimp or not enough crimp. The bullets are moving too easily and too soon dropping the pressure and stopping the powder from burning. You may not be able to crimp enough in a plated bullet with no crimp groove to get proper combustion of the powder.

That is right, the data is for lead which has less friction and is much easier to push out of the barrel. I disagree with him to a point about the crimping, because the main issue is the friction. Anyway, plated bullets can be taper crimped to help get a good burn with the powder. The small doses of very fast pistol powders do not need a crimp nearly as much as big doses of slow pistol powders. The crimp does help, but is not nearly as critical for light target loads with fast powders.

 

[Waywatcher]

Trail Boss is great stuff, highly recommended!

Clean burning, very voluminous, easy metering, and its light grey color allows for easy visualing. Impossible to double charge. Single base powder so it burns cool too, with no lead vaporization.

Compared to even the cheapest powder, its a fraction of a penny more per round. I amortize my reloads and the cost goes up about $0.20 per 50 rounds--it is well worth it.

 

[Berry's MFG]

I sent Hodgdon a copy of my original post and thought the reply might be of interest:

I disagree with the quote from Mike Daly, we use Hodgdon powders for a lot of our testing on our plated bullets and use dillon dies with great success on all of our testing. We don't recommend the very light bullseye shooting load data for plated bullets. Those loads were worked up for swaged dead soft lead. Plated aren't as hard as a jacketed bullet, but not near the soft swaged lead bullets. The answer should not have been to use cast bullets or use a Lee factory crimp die, but to increase the load careful not exceed jacketed data.

 

[Walkalong]

but to increase the load careful not exceed jacketed data.

Yep. I shoot the Berrys 148 GR DEWC and HBWC as well as their 125 Gr TrFP in light loads in .38 and .357 brass. You just have to use a light taper crimp and enough powder to safely get them out of your barrel. This can be done at reasonable charge weights. I run the 125 at around 900 FPS and the 148's at 725 to 750 FPS using powders that do not suffer a lot of velocity loss if the powder is forward away from the primer.

 

[wrangler5]

I run the 125 at around 900 FPS and the 148's at 725 to 750 FPS using powders that do not suffer a lot of velocity loss if the powder is forward away from the primer.

And what powders would those be, pray tell?

 

[Walkalong]

Clays with the 125, but Competition works well. Competition with the 148's, but Clays does OK and WST is another pretty good choice for either one. Bullseye works as well, but is not as position insensitive. W-231 does OK, but really prefers lead. Super numbers with lead. Try one of those.