.38 special NON +P loads only

[landcruiser]

I recently purchased a Rossi 88 stainless 38 special revolver. The factory literature states "non +p" only. Which started my research.

The tests on www.brassfetcher.com are very interesting. Especially the Buffalo bore loads, but I decided to search for a more easily/localy obtainable round. I had purchased the Federal 110g Personal defense non+p and I obtained a box of Hornady 125g JHP/XTP non+p.

I loaded up all the plastic jugs that I could find full with water and headed to the range. I placed the jugs on the ground in front of each other and fired from approximately 7 yards. Both rounds were fired from my Rossi 88 2" barrel stainless revolver. I cut a nice 45 degree muzzle crown which slightly shortened the barrel length.

The Federal round weight was 106 grains and the Hornady was 123.5 grains after firing/expansion. This is only an approximation as my digital scale only reads in grams with no tenths, I then converted to grains.

I measured the smallest diameter and the largest of each round and averaged the two numbers for expansion size.

As you can see the Federal opened up nicely like a flower. A few pieces of the copper petal were shed. The white in the center is a piece of the first jug it hit.

The Hornady barely expanded over an unfired round. Because of it's limited expansion I fired another round, but it went through all the jugs and was unrecovered.

 

[GTSteve03]

Call me old-fashioned, but if I'm forced to shoot a non +P 38 load, I'd just as soon stick with a 158gr lead semi-wadcutter going about 800fps. It's easy on recoil and will penetrate plenty. Some of those light-weight 38 bullets, while they may expand, probably won't penetrate the 12 inch minimum the FBI tests demand for reliable handgun stopping power.

 

[tbeb]

Thanks for sharing!

Of the two, I would choose the Hornady for personal protection. It should penetrate sufficiently even it it deforms a little. Anymore I think penetration is most important. Instead of the Hornady 125, I would go with a 158 gr. bullet such as a lead semi-wadcutter or jacketed hollow point or semi-jacketed hollow point. In a round that might expand, I'd choose the Buffalo Bore 158 gr. lead hollowpoint

 

[landcruiser]

Thanks for the input guys. Anyone else?

 

[FullEffect1911]

I agree with both/either. The federal looked to have good expansion, but I seriously question whether it would have enough punch to get to where it needs to go. I personally would go with a 158 grain bullet. The 158 will have weight on it's side because most .38's won't have much speed. On top of that if penetration is concerned; and it should be, then you should get a semi wadcutter design or a hollow point that doesn't tend to expand much at all (such as the xtp).

Of those two however I would definitely use the Hornady.

 

[Brian Williams]

All you show is the expansion, did they go thru 1 or 2 jugs, if these both ended up in say the third jug, your penetration is similar(note similar not same), then the 110 with the greater expansion would be good. But if the Federal slug just went in the first jug and the Hornady went through the first, the second and into the third, then I would go with the Hornady for the penetration.


BUT MOST OF ALL PLACEMENT COUNTS

 

[MCgunner]

I fired a sparing amount of and carried +P in my M88 and it never got loose on me. The majority of my shooting was done with standard loads, but +P ain't gonna disintegrate the gun in one shot. It's just that using only hot loads will cause the gun to loosen up rather quickly, perhaps within several thousand rounds, but probably longer. I mean, my alloy frame Taurus is +P rated and the Rossi is all steel. If you're that worried about it, though, a standard pressure SWC will stop a man good 'nuf, better penetration than a .380 after all.

Even in the Taurus which is +P rated, I shoot mostly standard pressure loads in it. I carry +P and have fired enough to know where they're going to hit, POA.

 

[Slamfire]

Landcruiser: Interesting story, but bullets are now tested in ballistic gellatin.

Dr Fackler used to rail about the nonsense shill gun writers put about bullet performance. The shills would test bullets against steel plate, water jugs, duxseal. And make comparisons, claiming one is better than the others. All nonsense.

If you are killing a charging tree, shrub, or water jug, then comparing expansion in those media makes sense.

However the trend of modern bullet design is to increase stopping power against flesh and blood targets.

Only in some Third World countries are you allowed to conduct bullet performance tests against living humans, the civilized world has to use calibrated substitutes. And that is ballistic gellatin.

 

[landcruiser]

Thanks for everyones input

FullEffect1911

I am concerned with over pentration. This is not my carry choice and is stays at home. I see your point about the Hornady. Do you have any other recommendations?

Brian Williams

About 2 jugs for the Federal. The Hornady definately penetrated more and a few rounds were unrecoved because of this.

MCgunner

Thanks for the candid info on your M88. Mine has a very tight lockup, much tighter than my Ruger SP101. I am leaning towards your method of operation for non +p practice and LSWCHP +P occassionally.

SlamFire1

Does Fackler or Sanow have any tests of these loads or similar/newer ones? This was an impromtu test, but it does show some interesting differences. I think that the gelatin tests are very informative, but fall far short also in replicating the real world.

 

[FullEffect1911]

I am concerned with over pentration. This is not my carry choice and is stays at home. I see your point about the Hornady. Do you have any other recommendations?

To be quite honest I would order up some buffalo bore standard pressure heavy .38 specials, in the 158 grain swc-hp variety. You can get these rounds from:
http://www.midwayusa.com/ammunition

This way you won't have to worry about over stressing your gun, and you have a very effective round.

 

[shooter429]

Why not just use a 148 WC?

I just decided to load up a bunch of 148 PHBWC for target/PD in .38 standard pressure. Accurate, easy to control, and large meplate.
Hornady makes a standard pressure 158 grain XTP load that will likely penetrate as well as the WC, but why not carry what ya practice with too? Velocities/power too low to worry about trying to get expansion.

Shooter429

 

[ArchAngelCD]

That 110gr standard pressure Federal .38 Special round is very popular with shooters who have an older revolver. (mostly because it's one of the few available! LOL) Buffalo Bore is now making heavy Lead .38 Special standard pressure rounds that are reported to perform very well. Remington also has a 110gr SJHP round (part #R38S16) that's standard pressure. I haven't used it so I can recommend it but they do have one. Winchester has a 110gr SilverTip in standard pressure too.

As you can see the manufacturers are all using 110gr bullets because they feel that's the only way to achieve the velocity necessary for reliable expansion in a standard pressure .38 Special, well, all but Buffalo Bore.

 

[mnw42]

I'd say the BB ammo is loaded a little warm, but still not +P. I've read numerious places (including here) that the .38 special was loaded hotter in the past.

I use BB ammo in my Cobra and I'm very happy with it. They put a gas check on their lead bullets so they are very clean shooting.

 

[FullEffect1911]

I'd say the BB ammo is loaded a little warm, but still not +P. I've read numerious places (including here) that the .38 special was loaded hotter in the past.

I would agree that the BB's are on the high end of the SAAMI pressures, but I would also bet they are not over pressured. As I've heard before, the secret is in the sauce. Modern powders are capable of sustained max pressure instead of old powders that had a spike max pressure... This results in a higher overall velocity.

Anyway, Old Fuff comments on the speed of the old loading .38 special, I believe they were around 850 fps for a 158 grain slug (6" barrel?).

 

[landcruiser]

Check out http://www.brassfetcher.com/Various%20.38%20Special%20JHPs.html

My best guess is that the bullet in the front left side of the block is the Federal 110 PD. It looks like it expanded some, flipped around, and after possibly hitting the side of the box, came to rest at 12" depth. It seems that it is holding it own against +p loads.

The Winchester 110gr Silvertip is here http://www.brassfetcher.com/38special2inchbarrel.html It does not look to have attained the same speed or penetration.

 

[FullEffect1911]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Buffalo%20Bore%20158gr%20(non%20+P)%20SWC-HC.html

yes, but this load did much gooder

 

[landcruiser]

bump

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Landcruiser,

Interesting pictures - thank you for the experiment and posting the results. The Hornady XTP bullet closely resembles the results that I have gotten with the 85gr XTP bullet, from a short-barreled .32ACP. http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handloaded%2085gr%20Hornady%20XTP%20(5-shot%20test).html

Not terribly impressive, but it is a measurable increase in performance over FMJs and similar bullets out of these small guns.

 

[GRIZ22]

The tests you've conducted are fun to do but really only prove the best bullet for defending yourself against water jugs.

My vote is for a factory standard pressure 148 wadcutter as:

1. You can get them anywhere.
2. They are cheap to reload if that's what you do.
3. The bullet already in an efficient shape. A hollow point has to expand a bit to get the same shape as a wadcutter. The wadcutter starts out that way.
4. It will penetrate at least 14" in ballistic gelatin.
5. It is easy on you and the gun.

For reloads I carry 158 grain standard pressure SWCs in a 2x2 pouch or speedloader. They are easier to reload than wadcutters.

 

[dbarale]

I fired a sparing amount of and carried +P in my M88 and it never got loose on me. The majority of my shooting was done with standard loads, but +P ain't gonna disintegrate the gun in one shot.

Same here, probably 150rds of +P through mine when I owned it with no ill effects.
Sold it to a friend who put another 100rds of +p through it.
The gun is still fine.
With what I know now I would not expect full, reliable expansion from a 2" .38spl.
The .158gr Std pressure from Buffalo Bore looks really good for your application.