38 Spl and 357, WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!

[C5rider]

I loaded up two different "trial packs" before working up a major number of rounds. First, I had some 38spl loaded with 4.5gr Universal behind 140gr Missouri "Zingers". I also had some 357 Mags loaded up with 13gr of H110 and some Hornady 180gr XTPs.

I shot them both through my Ruger Vaquero Bisley (non-adjustable sights), starting with the 38s. Since my eyes aren't that great, i only hand the target about 10 yards away. The 38s were pretty close to my POA and I was happy with them. What surprised me, was how far the 357 loads were from where the 38s were hitting. At 10 yards, they were at LEAST 6-inches high from where I was aiming! This surprised me. I had to bury the front sight pretty deep into the rear groove to get them to hit where I wanted them. Once I figured out HOW to direct them, they were pretty accurate.

Maybe the gun's lack of adjustment helped point it out to me, maybe I've not been observant enough in the past. Maybe these loads are extreme examples of the two, I don't know. It just really stood out to me how different the two loads were this time.

My question is, what causes this, bullet wieght? Powder? Charge? What is a typical reaction if you increase or reduce powder? Is there one?

I guess I'm just starting to REALLY pay attention to differences in loads and going beyond simply getting what you get when you pull the trigger. Trying to understand and do better.

Thanks for any/all info, experiences.

 

[rcmodel]

Yes it is normal.
Perfectly normal in fact.

Bore dwell time, and recoil, determines where the muzzle is pointing at the exact moment the bullet comes out of the barrel.

You hit a perfect storm with your two loads to demonstrate the difference.

A light bullet, mouse fart load with almost no recoil.
And a heavy for caliber, heavy recoiling load for the other.

BTW: You, or I, might have a very difficult time convincing a whole lot of handgun shooters recoil moves the gun while the bullet is still in the barrel.

I've been in that argument several times right here on THR in the years I have been here.
With very little success convincing the non-believers!

But you just proved conclusively that it is, in fact, a fact that it does!!

Congratulations!!

rc

 

[Certaindeaf]

You either gotta hold off, get out the file or regulate/adjust the load with fixed sights.
Try some 158 grain .357 whompers and it might hit just right.

 

[joneb]

Bore dwell time, and recoil, determines where the muzzle is pointing at the exact moment the bullet comes out of the barrel.

I agree. I find this with revolvers more than semi-autos.
The way you hold the gun makes a difference, if you are anticipating light recoil you may hold the differently than if you were shooting a heavy recoil load, and this should make the POI closer if your grip is less with the light loads and tighter with the heavy loads.
With 38spl I find a 125gr bullet will hit the target 2-3" lower than a 158gr bullet given the same pressure.
And I do think barrel length plays a part in this.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Weight of the gun also.

 

[rcmodel]

And barrel length.

Ever notice the differance in front sight height between a 4 5/8" Colt SAA and a 7 1/2" Colt SAA.

Or a 2 1/2" S&W .357 Magnum and a 8 3/8" S&W .357 Magnum.

rc

 

[Certaindeaf]

It's always cause for wonderment (to me at least) when a Model-64 or somesuch is absolutely perfectly on with the most common standard load.
I guess I really shouldn't be surprised though 'cause it's pretty common for some of those old guns.

 

[SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE]

RC you made a believer out of me a couple years ago when I posted a similar question about my handloads for my .454 Ruger ! Kevin

 

[Twiki357]

What rcmodel said in post #2. I have a single action Beretta 357 mag with a 3 1/2" bbl and noticed the same thing. 141gr 38 Spl W/Cs were right on point of aim. 158gr 357 mag semi W/Cs were hitting about 4"/5" high at 7 yards.

 

[C5rider]

VERY interesting indeed!

Thanks for the input. It was interesting how different the two were. Like RC said, a perfect storm to illustrate the difference between the two.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Yea, I advise my friends at the shooting range i belong to, that when they are shooting low with a fixed sight handgun, to go to a heavier bullet. They always seem to bring a "light for caliber load" with them, then start complaining about the gun when it doesn't shoot to point of aim.
I usually have a mix in my range bag so when that corrects the problem they look at me and say "HUH". Why?

I don't try to expain it to them, I just tell them "thats the way it works". I don't have to prove anything to them that way, and they're happy because they though they bought a bad pistol.

 

[JLDickmon]

mouse fart load with almost no recoil.
rc

you know how many years it's been since I've heard that term?

 

[Blue68f100]

I put a bore sighter in my Pyhon (6") once and it was 5" low at 15yrds. But with mag loads POI=POA.

 

[C5rider]

a friend of mine has a 100 yard range with some active metal targets. I was shooting my Blackhawk out there one time and had to raise the front sight up quite a bit. I'll bet this ol' girl with those loads would hit pretty close. Would love to try it some time!