.38 Super - interesting case find

[RainDodger]

I went to the pistol range today, with my .38 Super. I was banging away happily, going through about my 5th or 6th magazine of reloads... then I got a failure to return to battery. Very odd, I thought. I have never had a single malfunction with this pistol. Light thumb pressure didn't solve it. I dropped the magazine and ejected the live round. I put it back in the magazine, reseated the mag in the pistol and dropped the slide. Another failure to go into battery. Rather than mess with it at the range, I cleared the pistol and brought it home.

I pulled the pistol apart and there was no apparent reason for the failure until I tried the exact same cartridge and got the same problem.

Long story short, it was not the pistol. It was the cartridge. Its overall length was exactly in spec, so there was nothing to make it stand out when boxed. When I looked at the case though, the rim looked a bit thicker than usual, and the case looked longer. Come to find out, it was a LOT longer!

Max case length for a .38 Super is .900". I pulled this cartridge apart and the case measured .928" and since the .38 Super headspaces on the case mouth just like a .45 ACP, you see the problem! I was .028" over length, from the base to the case mouth.

This case was a Remington. It was new, never fired. I only taper crimp my .38 Supers and it wouldn't have been a real noticeable difference when crimping....

Just thought I'd tell anyone interested, that I guess it pays to look at every case you buy, even when you buy by the thousand!

 

[Larry Burchfield]

38 super

If it is a true 38 super it headspaces off of the case rim. The 38 super comp headspaces off of the case mouthe like all other auto rounds. Some say that it because of the rim that it doesn't lend itself to double stack mags well. Thus the birth of the rimless case.
Larry Burchfield
SEABEES/VIETNAM/67/68/69
DAV

 

[RSVP2RIP]

That is not true entirely. Colt had changed sometime in the 90's to headspacing on the mouth to catch up with everybody else. All 38 supers made after 91 I believe, will headspace on the case mouth not the rim. Headspacing on the rim produced some accuracy problems apparently.

 

[RainDodger]

If it was an ORIGINAL .38 Super, it would headspace of the rim. RSVP2RIP is correct. All modern .38 Supers headspace off the case mouth and of course aftermarket barrels also headspace off the mouth. In any event, the pistol in question is a Kimber that headspacess off the case mouth.

All of that's a moot point though, as I'm talking about a case that's .028" over-length, which is a weird thing to find I think! In ~40 years of reloading, I've never seen this. Today I'll measure the rim thickness of the case - it looked a little thick to me but I haven't measured it. The headstamp looks fine though. It's just sort of weird and I thought handloaders might find it interesting.

 

[rfwobbly]

Rain Man -
Time to buy a cartridge gauge for 38 Super !!

 

[Jim Watson]

I one had some range pickup .45 ACP with Hornady-Frontier headstamp that was too long. The original purchaser must have had a sloppy gun, because they would not run in mine when loaded as I was doing other brands of mixed brass. Hey, stuff happens.

 

[RainDodger]

Definitely, stuff happens. I think rfwobbly hit the nail square - cartridge gauge time! Ah.... another tool to buy! That's way more fun than just using the calipers!

 

[Win1892]

Don't ever assume that new cases are correct length. I've probably bought 38 Super cases 10 times with maybe 4 brands in both brass and nickel and have never had a length problem, but I do check. It's easier than knocking apart a couple of hundred rounds later.

 

[Clifford]

Not all current colts headspace off of the case mouth. I purchased one NIB about a year ago, current production stainless 5" series 80 and to my suprise the barrel headspaces off of the rim.

I had thought that they stopped this practice and when I discovered it I checked a couple other colt super's at other shops around town to see what barrels they had. I only found 3 other current production colts, two xse's and one that was an identical copy of my gun. The XSE's headspaced on the mouth and the other on the rim. So it is something you may want to look out for.

Accuracy hasn't been a problem in my super but I load the rounds long, so they just touch the rifling when chambered. I have noticed on some winchester brass that I purchased the casemouth isn't cut square. I had to true 200 pieces on a case trimmer.

 

[RainDodger]

Wow, that's really interesting, Clifford. I wouldn't have thought there were any out there that headspace on the rim! That was the main complaint about the .38 Super when it first came out - relatively poor accuracy due to that exact thing. Everything I've read says that Colt stopped doing that a couple of decades ago. I had a Colt Commander that headspaced on the rim, but it was mfg in 1969 or 70. I put a different barrel in just for that reason.

 

[Clifford]

Yup I was surpised to find the old style barrel in a new production gun myself. But it works for me I only use the gun for steel matches and accuracy isn't as important as speed in those matches. When I need an accurate gun my colt 1911 in .45 is a much more accurate gun, thou I'm not as fast with it due to a little more recoil.

 

[navyretired 1]

I saved a 38 super barrel by cleaning chamber perfectly permanent Lok-Tite and reaming chamber to headspace on case mouth instead of rim. Went from 8" groups at 25 yds to 2 1/2" @ 25 yds. Spacer has never come out and if it does then I'll buy a new barrel. Colt is very slow to change anything they think the design is ok on but that rim is only good for a case holder and barely at that.
OH shoot I forgot to say what I Lok-Tited in . a short piece of a steel 38 special case I found. Yes Oyeboten, the US Navy did 30-06 garands that way to make them 0.762X51 NATO chambers, If done right its good if not cleaned good the spacer comes out without you noticing and you get some really neat looking brass 0.762X51 straight shotshells. I've got about 20 of them, cute but I don't know what to use for except amusment.
This is not a worry in 38 super as neck doesn't go inside spacer to pull out. Its very hard to see even with bore scope but spacer is only about size of thick hair after reaming.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi navyretired 1,


You made and fitted a tiny collar inside the Chamber to shorten/acheive proper depth for the Case mouth to register?


I've wondered about this...if it could be practically done...


...more details?