.38 Super vs 9mm +P or +P+

[Panzerschwein]

From a 5" bbl 1911, is a .38 Super more powerful than a 9mm +P or +P+ from a 4.5-5" bbl Glock or Beretta pistol? Some I've spoken to seem to think .38 Super is the more powerful.

I am interested in the cartridge, and am eyeing a Colt O2991 in .38 Super as both a range target gun but also as a home defense gun with hollow point ammo. What do you guys know about .38 Super? Is it a fun cartridge? I do not reload, but see that Armscor and other companies offer it for a good price. Would you say .38 Super is good enough for self defense with hollow points? Is it an effective caliber for that purpose?

Thanks!

 

[rcmodel]

With handloads at least, the .38 Super will give you about 100 FPS more velocity then you can get with a 9mm.

Will it make a difference in terminal performance?
No.

Will you be the only kid on the block with .38 Super Colt?
Yes.

The .38 Super was designed to be the same length as the .45 ACP.

And feed, Fire, and Function Freely in a 1911.

The 9mm Luger wasn't, and is shorter then ideal for the 1911 to feed properly without 'trick' mags.
(Although the best of them work quite well.)

You be the judge.

rc

 

[Panzerschwein]

Thanks RC.

Still weighing the options.

 

[bannockburn]

Cooldill

The other nice thing about having a .38 Super is that with a 9mm. barrel assembly and magazine you can shoot 9mm. through the same gun. Don't have to change out any other parts. Have always had a thing for Colt Combat Commanders and Lightweight Commanders in .38 Super.

 

[judgedelta]

With factory .38 super ammo, you get what you pay for. Either down-loaded 9mm-like stuff or hotter full-bore, 9mm can't touch it, stuff. Like shooting a 10mm vs. a 40 short & weak, you can feel the power. If that's what you want, go for it...

 

[tark]

38 Supers are loaded down a bit in the last few years. It used to be a 130 gr bullet at 1280-1300 FPS. Nowdays it is the same bullet at 1200. A 124 Gr bullet goes to 1240. The round is now loaded to 9X19 pressures, and really doesn't offer any advantages over that cartridge.

Until you handload, or go to the specialty companies that load it up to its full potential.

I would go with the Super round. And, as RC has mentioned, it the proper length to feed out of a 1911 frame.

 

[RainDodger]

I've carried a .38 Super for years, but I also hand load for it. I've found the run-of-the-mill factory loads to be pretty anemic - similar to 9mm but I've never actually tested them for velocity.

If you hand load, it's a very fun caliber and worth the time. It's easy to load, and like rc said, the 1911 is a great gun for the caliber.

If you live on my block though... you won't be the only one with a .38 Super!

Edit: one time I had a bunch of .355 (9mm) 90 grain hollow points and I worked up a quick load with them for the .38 Super.... they were something a bit faster than 1,500 FPS and a blast (literally!) to shoot. Quite accurate and totally reliable... but almost everything is reliable in mine.

 

[Deanimator]

The last time I checked, Buffalo Bore had at least one decent self-defense load for the .38 Super.

At one point, I was thinking about getting a nickeled RIA 5" .38 Super.

 

[Gtscotty]

38 Supers are loaded down a bit in the last few years. It used to be a 130 gr bullet at 1280-1300 FPS. Nowdays it is the same bullet at 1200. A 124 Gr bullet goes to 1240. The round is now loaded to 9X19 pressures, and really doesn't offer any advantages over that cartridge.

Sounds like the new factory 38 super loads aren't terribly terribly impressive, 124gr HST +p leaves the barrel of my G19 right around 1240 fps.

 

[Rock185]

I've owned,shot and reloaded for both the Super and the 9MM for lots of years. With appropriate ammo, I would not hesitate to carry a good pistol chambered in either caliber. I've done a fair amount of chronographing of both calibers. I suspect many shooters comparing ballistics of the two calibers don't take into account that 9MM ammo is generally tested in 4" barrels and the Super 38 in 5" barrels. Actual chronographed velocities in 5" barrels shows major manufacturer's 38 Super ammo is not much more powerful than 9X19 ammo. When comparing factory 9MM +P and +P+ to the Super it takes the smaller manufacturer Super 38 "Boutique" type ammo to exceed 9MM by very much. Ultimately though, with equal weight bullets loaded to equal pressure, the Super will outperform the smaller 9MM. I enjoy both and have 5" 1911s in both calibers that are just as reliable as as my 1911s in the "proper" .45ACP caliber.....ymmv

 

[joem1945]

I have one in .38 auto. It's a Star made in 1921 and will fire .38 auto or 9mm largo which is close to .38 auto. fun to shoot.

 

[stoky]

It's like comparing a vette to a Trabant.

 

[tark]

Joem1945, the Largo ammo I have found for my Star Super A is hot stuff. I get chrono readings of just over 1200 fps for some of it. With a 124 gr bullet. If I mix Largo and factory Super ammo in the mag, no one has been able to tell the difference.

My point is that Largo ammo is much closer to Super performance than it is to 38 AUTO. If your star is happy shooting 38 AUTO ammo it probably has weak springs. If I shoot 38 AUTOs in my Star, it short strokes and stovepipes. I put new springs in it and anyone shooting an old pistol should do the same. They are cheap, and available.

 

[justin22885]

38 super is still capable of more than 9mm +P, and if you load 38 super up to 9mm +P pressures, you have even more power with the same level of bolt thrust.. in REALLY short barrels, all other things being considered the 38 super would result in more wasted powder, but full size pistols youre going to get a lot more energy

another reason i like 38 super over say the 9x23mm is because the 38 super can be made from chopped down 5.56/.223 brass and can be loaded up to pressure and match 9x23 ballistics in custom hand loads, assuming you have the proper springs to handle the extra force.. your bolt thrust doing this shouldnt be more than 10mm, but your ballistics if you do so will match 357 magnum with the same bullet weight

a reason i like 38 super over 9mm is suppression, the 38 super generally has a .356" bore vs a .355 of the 9mm, means 38 super can use .357" bullets as well as it can use .355, so your custom 38 super loads can use 158 grain .357" projectiles if you want more momentum and better barrier penetration, also, the 158, 180 grain .357" bullets with the ability to bring them up to just under supersonic speeds makes them far better than 9mm for suppression

unfortunately most 38 super pistols are just converted 45acp pistols so the grip feels much wider than it should be in a doublestack, eceptions to this rule is the EAA witness steel pistols which was basically designed around 38 super, and also the caspian doublestack 1911 frames and mags, narrower than the STI and PARA frames, the caspian was basically designed around 38 super as well

throw all that together, a doublestack pistol designed for it, custom hand loads based on 5.56/.223 brass, .357" bullets, higher pressures.. you have the potential of a 17+1 round pistol pushing the same .357" bullets at the same velocities as a .357 magnum and doing so in a comfortable, ergonomic grip thats not too wide

HUGE untapped potential with 38 super

 

[SSN Vet]

Sounds like what you really want is 9x23.

 

[justin22885]

9x23 brass isnt all that common though, at least with 38 super you can make a rimless variant of the cartridge from a .223 case and then load it up to 9x23 specs... all the performance of 9x23, fraction of the cost

 

[Casefull]

Longer case helps with powder capacity with 147 bullets. Load them in 9mm and not much room for powder. I have a 4inch kimber in 38 super. Very accurate.

 

[justin22885]

what case says is true, due to the length of the 147 grain bullets with the amount of powder you have left over it makes the 147 grain 9mm loads the least energetic

 

[Rock185]

Back in the mid '80s, I did some experimenting with Col. Cooper's Super 9 cartridge, a .223/5.56 case trimmed to .900". I used a 5" 38 Super barrel. Using Winchester 571 powder and Federal small rifle primers, I worked up to 1625 FPS with 115 grain bullets before deciding that discretion is better part of valor and didn't go further. The .223 case head is really strong and was unfazed by the high-for-pistol pressures. But, ahead of the case head the cases bulged quite noticeably due to the smaller diameter of the parent .223/5.56 case as compared with the 38 Super case. So cases that will function in a Super can be made from .223 brass, but I would not consider it desirable unless there was no other option. BTW, 9MM and 38 Super barrels vary as to groove diameters, .354"-.357" is not unusual. I have used .357 diameter bullets in both without any issues.........ymmv

 

[justin22885]

of course the cases bulge out from the first time you use them, because all you did was fire form them to the 38 super chamber.. that doesnt make the conversion dangerous or undesirable, its to be expected and planned for

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Back to the OP question.

The bottom line is the 38 Super can toss any bullet the 9mm can toss at a lower pressure because it has more case capacity.

I like it for that reason. My standard load is a 130 grn LRN trotting out at 1350 FPS. Lots of fun to shoot in the Super and has a nice bark to it and runs great in my now 5 Supers. In a 9mm that might be pushing the limits a bit.

 

[justin22885]

peter, i didnt consider it that way. but interesting reason.. so instead of chucking 147 grain bullets at the same velocity as the 9mm will chuck 124s, you down-load it so the 38 super will chuck them out at the same velocity, however extending your brass life for reloads, and causing less wear on the frame of your pistols