380 acp fyi

[murf]

i wasn't going to post this, but the info i gathered might be helpful to some of you. i loaded up 25 screw-tip bullet rounds a couple weeks ago to "resupply" my lcp II pocket carry gun. i shot the old ammo and loaded up the three magazines with this fresh stuff. between then and sunday, the bottom round in one of the magazines wound up with the bullet seated an extra 20 thousandths into the case (called set back and not good).

so i took everything home, replaced the "short" round and tested all rounds by pushing them down against my reloading bench as hard as i could. i measured col before and after the "push" and verified that all rounds had the same col. that solved the shrinking bullet problem for my lcpII. but, i have a bunch of different cases for reloading and i don't want this to happen again.

so, i measured the case wall thickness of a bunch of different headstamped cases and this is what i came up with:



the case that had the shrinking bullet (set back) was r-p. the wall thickness was .008" to .009" (the 68 grain lehigh defense xd bullet diameter is .3545" which doesn't help any). this is what i figure caused the bullet to press down into the case.

the diatribe below the graph is my disappointment in the starline case wall thickness variation of .004 (from .009" to .013"). starline is better than this and i hope someone from there is watching this. that said, the starline cases hold the bullet securely in the case as well as any other. i guess i am just whining.

a couple more pics to show my process:


i am not going to check every case as my practice load bullets are .356" diameter lead. i will just do the "push" test on all my carry load rounds.

fyi,

murf

 

[kmw1954]

murf, I load a lot of pistol rounds with both plated and cast lead. So far I have not experienced any difficulties with any of the 380 loads be it cast or plated. I do sort all brass by head stamp before loading. But then with my 45acp I was having chronic chambering problems with both cast and plated because as you state these bullets are .452".. So the cast I tried sizing them down to .451" which did the trick and then I also did the case wall measurements and like you found the R-P to be the thinnest. From there I tried loading the .452" cast into the R-P brass and again all went well. No more chambering problems.

 

[Walkalong]

Many years ago I had issues with the same thing, I replaced my dies with RCBS and all the issues went away.

Either the sizer is too big, the expander is too big, or both. Size some, skip expanding, then see if there is enough neck tension. If there is, the expander is too big, polish it down or replace it. If it doesn't, the sizer die is too big, replace it.

 

[BW460]

RP brass is known to be thin.

 

[kcofohio]

Look for CBC brass, usually some of the thickest.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Interesting write up, @murf I have some of the Lehigh but haven’t had time to load them up yet. I have to admit, I was planning on using Precision One brass because it runs thin like R-P and I was concerned about bulging. I’m counting on the fact that copper is sticky but maybe that’s not realistic.
Let us know how it goes.

 

[LiveLife]

RP brass is known to be thin.

R-P used to be thin but that seemed to have changed and now there is R-P with a "dot" next to "P" that has rounded rim with thicker case wall (Second from left with rounded rim compared to old R-P on the right with more typical rim edge)

And Remington ammunition was recently purchased by Vista Outdoor, the parent company of Federal/Speer/CCI/Alliant powder, etc. (Remington firearm was separated and sold to someone else).

Look for CBC brass, usually some of the thickest.

Yes CBC is thicker.

bullet seated an extra 20 thousandths into the case (called set back and not good) ... tested all rounds by pushing them down against my reloading bench as hard as i could

... i don't want this to happen again

I used to test neck tension and bullet setback by pushing on the bullet against the bench top but found this method of testing did not reproduce the impact force of bullet nose bumping on the feed ramp. So I started testing neck tension and bullet setback by loading dummy rounds from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it.

As to case wall thickness and bullet setback, that was confirmed in this myth busting thread where case wall thickness was measured at 12-3-6-9 O'clock positions (As case wall thickness is not always consistent) from .100" below case mouth (Where taper crimp is applied) to .200" below case mouth (Where bullet base is seated to with greater neck tension from thicker case wall) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

NOTE: Case wall thickness should be measured below .100" and especially down to .200" below case mouth as some reloaders chamfer the inside of case mouth down to around .050" below case mouth and .200" below case mouth has thicker case wall than .100" below case mouth to apply more neck tension on bullet base.

Case wall thickness measurement at 12/3/6/9 O'clock .100" below case mouth by headstamp where taper crimp is applied but not produce much neck tension - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10712225

Case wall thickness measurement at 12/3/6/9 O'clock .200" below case mouth by headstamp where bullet base produce greater neck tension from thicker case wall - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10713822

Additional issues for bullet setback are affect on chamber pressure and accuracy. As illustrated by OAL/COL change (bullet setback) vs pressure chart below, even small change of .005" can increase pressure by around 4,000 PSI for 9mm and 8,000 PSI for 40S&W using Ramshot Zip that has comparable burn rate of W231/HP-38 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...un-brass-worth-it.912195/page-2#post-12454962

So if you are at max charge and experience significant bullet setback, you could be over published max pressure. And if your "chambered OAL variance"/bullet setback is inconsistent, then your accuracy will likely be affected. Especially for defensive rounds that are loaded at higher muzzle velocities using near max/max charges and match rounds that must produce smallest groups, I prefer to use bullet/case wall thickness combination that does not produce any bullet setback (And preferably once-fired brass).

And keep in mind that cases can get shorter as it is repeatedly reloaded and shorter resized cases will apply less neck tension on bullet base than longer resized cases. So for maximum neck tension, use longest resized cases.

BTW, results from bullet setback testing from myth busting thread using different diameter bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

 

[buck460XVR]

Many years ago I had issues with the same thing, I replaced my dies with RCBS and all the issues went away.

Me also. Came down to the Lee sizing die was not sizing cases down enough. I could seat bullets without flaring the cases. When I contacted Lee about the issue, their reply was they knew they had an issue with their standard sizing die on "some varieties" of brass and their solution was to buy their "undersize" die to fix the issue. With shipping, the "undersize" die was as much as their whole 4 die pistol set. Only Lee product I had bought up till then was the 4 die set because I wasn't gonna load a lot of .380, and I thought I'd save some bucks as opposed to a better quality set. Bought the "undersize" die because it was still cheaper than RCBS, but could have bought RCBS in the first place for less, and had no issues. Will never buy Lee again.

 

[kmw1954]

Bought the "undersize" die because it was still cheaper than RCBS, but could have bought RCBS in the first place for less, and had no issues. Will never buy Lee again.

Awe gee wiz. I have a Hornady bullet feed die that has never worked from day one. Called their CS and was told straight up OH WELL! No suggestions on how to get it to work. Wasn't cheap either. But I still buy Hornady stuff all the time. I can go on and on about products that I have purchased that didn't live up to their selling point. I still buy from those companies. But I will use Hornady's reply, and my favorite Fleetwood Mac song, OH WELL!

 

[murf]

So I started testing neck tension and bullet setback by loading dummy rounds from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it.

i used to do this with 9mm load workups since the 9mm cases are all over the place dimensionally. i will do this with my 380 acp carry rounds asap. thx for the reminder.

Case wall thickness measurement at 12/3/6/9 O'clock .100" below case mouth by headstamp

i measure each case a half a dozen times. it is easy to spin the case around the mandrel and measure with the casemaster.

R-P used to be thin but that seemed to have changed and now there is R-P with a "dot" next to "P" that has rounded rim with thicker case wall (Second from left with rounded rim compared to old R-P on the right with more typical rim edge)

another project if i can find enough of both cases.

murf

 

[buck460XVR]

Awe gee wiz. I have a Hornady bullet feed die that has never worked from day one. Called their CS and was told straight up OH WELL! No suggestions on how to get it to work. Wasn't cheap either. But I still buy Hornady stuff all the time. I can go on and on about products that I have purchased that didn't live up to their selling point. I still buy from those companies. But I will use Hornady's reply, and my favorite Fleetwood Mac song, OH WELL!

...and that is your right and your choice. My issue is that Lee knows they have a problem and have not corrected it, nor do they want to. They want to sell their undersize die at a premium price as an extra, when it should be the standard die in their 4 die set. They told me I could sent the bad die in to them on my dime and pay to have it shipped back, even if there was a problem with it. But...they told me not to bother because of the known issue they have. The cost of shipping both ways was almost the price of the new "undersize" die. Kinda a racket if you ask me. Only reason for anyone to buy Lee is their price point. Not because of their quality, or their customer service. Pretty well known fact. When the price point goes above and beyond quality products and better customer service, as you said " Awe gee wiz", I'm done. Learned my lesson. I only have to be bit once by a dog, to know not to pet it again. Since there are so many better choices out there, it's not my loss.

 

[murf]

Interesting write up, @murf I have some of the Lehigh but haven’t had time to load them up yet. I have to admit, I was planning on using Precision One brass because it runs thin like R-P and I was concerned about bulging. I’m counting on the fact that copper is sticky but maybe that’s not realistic.
Let us know how it goes.

all the 68 grain lehigh xd bullets mic on the low side of .355". most of my r-p case thicknesses run .008" to .010" and seem to work except the one case that runs .008" to .009". what i need is a sizing die that will size the thinner cased down more.

i will keep up with this thread as best i can.

murf

 

[PapaG]

I pocket carried a LCP in the shop long before we had CCW here in Pritzgers Republik. I’d unload each day and then reload the next day after getting to work. I noticed one day that the top round, the one loaded and unloaded daily was markedly shorter than the rest. Getting bumped on the feed ramp had gradually driven the bullet farther into the case. I changed my protocol after that as well as paying closer attention to the round’s appearance.

 

[murf]

Either the sizer is too big

this seems the case because all the thicker walled cases work fine.

I replaced my dies with RCBS

this may be the way to go.

murf

 

[kmw1954]

...and that is your right and your choice. My issue is that Lee knows they have a problem and have not corrected it, nor do they want to. .

exactly my point with Hornady. SO what we quit buying from everyone that sold an inferior product or just go on public forum and pitch a fit?

Wanne hear about a $45.000 GMC truck that was junk from day one? Ford has done the same thing with both engines and transmissions. SO!

 

[buck460XVR]

SO what we quit buying from everyone that sold an inferior product or just go on public forum and pitch a fit?

Difference between "pitching a fit" and informing others as to an obvious problem, so they don't fall for the same line. Part of why I come to these types of forums is to glean from the experience of others. I return, I try to help others by telling of my experiences. Every major manufacturer has made a lemon or has had issues with a particular product at one point or another. The difference between a reputable company and a so-so company is what they do when there is a problem. Anytime I had an issue with anything RCBS, I've been told to send it in for free to be looked at/repaired for free or I get a replacement part sent to me free of charge. Lee would not even look at my defective die without a charge, because they knew about the defect and their reluctance to give me a break on the price or even the shipping costs of fixing their their problem, was telling me all I need to know. This issue with the sizing die in Lee's .380 ACP 4 die set is not a one time issue. One can search the internet and find may folks that have had the same issue....one reason Lee knows all about the issue. So yes, I refrain from buying from folks that not only sell a inferior product, but continue to promote that inferior product, even tho they know they have an issue. Can't for the life of me figure out why that bothers you so?

 

[kmw1954]

Difference between "pitching a fit" and informing others as to an obvious problem, so they don't fall for the same line. ?

Lee's reputation dates back to before I even started reloading in 1980 so nothing new here. Yet I can come to this or any other forum weekly and find a comment in a thread about Lee's CS. Again previous reputation. You yourself mentioned that you could have and should have bought an RCBS unit yet you didn't. Even though you admit you already understood Lee's reputation for at times inferior products. Sorry I just don't get it!

Now here is this. I have been taken to the ER with heart issues and have refused treatment by the Dr. on duty because I already new his previous reputation. Yes even though my life was at risk which is why I refused to let him treat me. So I am not going to pitch a fit about a $30.00 tool.

 

[buck460XVR]

Lee's reputation dates back to before I even started reloading in 1980 so nothing new here. Yet I can come to this or any other forum weekly and find a comment in a thread about Lee's CS. Again previous reputation.

But yet it still upsets you so, that you need to "pitch a fit ", when someone just repeats what is already well known? Sorry, I just don't get it. Just a much as I see folks gripping about Lee on these types of forums, I also see folks like you, who claim they are the best thing since sliced bread. Yep, I should have known better and I regret believing they could make something of quality, or at least stand behind their products. But this is an prime example of the old "fool me once" phrase.

 

[kmw1954]

Sorry if it seems I am picking on you and in a way I guess I am.

Lee has been in business since before I started in 1980 and even then they had a reputation just as RCBS has. Also there have been many other small companies in this line of business that have not survived for whatever reason. Regardless of what your or my feeling is Lee Precision is a thriving successful business. You or me not buying their product is not going to effect their bottom line. Lee's biggest seller has always been their price point and that is not going to change. Next the only other reloading tool company in existence is RCBS. No one else's catalog is as large or contains as many items.

So it still all comes back to previous reputation which I firmly believe there isn't a reloader alive that doesn't already know it. Yet they still keep buying and Lee still keeps growing. I also believe there has not been a single product in their catalog that has not been at some point been judged inferior. Yet people keep buying and successfully using.

Myself, I freely and openly admit that 90% of everything on my bench was purchased used, on ebay, flea markets, gun forums, wherever. Yes a good portion of it is also Lee carp. As well as RCBS, Hornady, Lyman and some I don't even know the name of.

You believe you are providing a service to others with these comments while I find it just regurgitating the same song and dance over and over, week after week, from forum to forum. Again it has all been said before and more than once.

Again, sorry if you feel picked on.

 

[murf]

i ran all eighteen rounds through the pistol. non have setback, even the three r-p cases. so these rounds have been through the "loading bench press test" and the "cycle through the pistol" test. i'm still going to do this for all my reloads going into my carry gun, and all lehigh defense xd bullets.

still going to get a sizing die one of these days.

murf

 

[murf]

Look for CBC brass, usually some of the thickest.

the g.f.l. brass is just the right thickness and works well. i just don't have enough to use it exclusively. win brass can be thin, but two rounds in my carry ammo have win cases and passed the setback tests. a smaller diameter sizing die would fix my problem, i think.

murf

 

[film495]

were you able to attach the set back case, to any of your measurements? you might just set that type aside if the data backs up thin brass being the issue.

 

[murf]

were you able to attach the set back case, to any of your measurements? you might just set that type aside if the data backs up thin brass being the issue.

yes, the case had thin walls (.008"-.009"), but all other r-p cases were 9 to 10 thousandths and do not have this issue. that is why i am going to check my carry ammo every time. i don't worry about my practice ammo because the bullet is .356" in diameter (no problems in a few hundred rounds fired).

murf

 

[LiveLife]

case had thin walls (.008"-.009"), but all other r-p cases were 9 to 10 thousandths and do not have this issue

How far below case mouth are you taking the measurements?

Case wall thickness where bullet base gets seated down to, where case wall is thicker, determines most amount of neck tension - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/380-acp-fyi.914151/#post-12503874

And since case wall thickness can vary for the same case, single measurement may provide "incomplete" information of case wall thickness. Have you considered taking measurements at 12-3-6-9 O'clock positions to "average" out case wall thickness as done for the myth busting thread? https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10713822

 

[film495]

yes, the case had thin walls (.008"-.009"), but all other r-p cases were 9 to 10 thousandths and do not have this issue. that is why i am going to check my carry ammo every time. i don't worry about my practice ammo because the bullet is .356" in diameter (no problems in a few hundred rounds fired).

murf

interesting. you might consider moving on to another bullet that is a standard .356 at some point as well. not sure why their bullet is a different diameter, thinner.