.380, decent defense gun or not?

[choochboost]

Chooch....from personal experience I seen most suspects check themselves in hospitals after getting hit with FMJ rounds ranging from .32acp to 9mm, with JHP they are usually incapacitated or dead. Sorry buddy but Dr. Roberts is a flaming idiot. Bigger holes = Better results

You're completely missing his point. Doc Roberts is a diehard 5" .45 1911 kind of guy. He understands that bigger holes create more damage. He is NOT recommending a .380, and he would never carry one. He is saying that if you are like some of the people in this thread and insist on carrying a .380, you're better off with FMJ because .380 JHP cannot reliably penetrate enough. Bigger holes don't mean anything unless the round can penetrate deeply enough to cause incapacitating damage. Glasers are a good example. They cause nasty wounds but their inability to penetrate is legendary.

The point is a .380 is not a good choice. In part, he makes his case by saying you're better off with FMJ in this caliber. Who would want to carry FMJ in a carry gun? Not you, not me, not Dr. Roberts. But if you're better off with FMJ in this caliber, it says something about the caliber. Again...not a good choice.

It is almost unfathomable to me that some one would be offering recommendation to a newbie to use FMJ.

Read the posts. Only in .380, which shows why .380 is not a good choice.

You don't need 18-24" of penetration and neither does the FBI, but it sounded better than saying that their damn accountants can't shoot and weren't smart enough to get backup while chasing two known killers known to be carrying semiautomatic rifles.

This is quite a disrespectful post towards the FBI. About their shooting ability, the agents I've known could shoot better than the average patrol cop.

For the record, FBI and IWBA testing standards do not call for 18-24" of penetration.

 

[the naked prophet]

I like the 9mm round because it goes fast enough to reliably expand (with some of the high quality JHP, like Golden Sabers, Gold Dots, etc.) and has enough oomph that when it DOES expand, it penetrates deep enough to reach something important, like major blood vessels or organs.

Rounds like the .32 and .22 just don't have enough oomph to both expand AND penetrate deep enough to reach something important. True, a FMJ .32 will probably go clean through somebody. And some loads can dramatically expand a JHP. But the ones that do expand stop so quickly that they don't reach the organs that need to be reached to physically incapacitate someone.

In these "mouse gun" calibers, a FMJ is your best bet because although the hole is smaller, it's deep enough to cause damage where damage is needed. In larger calibers (.38 spl, 9mm and up) it's a no-brainer to use JHP because they will expand AND penetrate deep enough to cause damage where damage is needed.

Interestingly enough, the .380 is right on the border between the two. Depending on whose definition of "deep enough" you use, a JHP may expand and penetrate deep enough to hit something vital. For a frontal between-the-ribs shot, 8 inches might be deep enough to completely penetrate the vital organs and stop short of exiting the body. However, most shots will not be perfect frontal shots. I've read that many gunfights involve people getting shot in the arms (which are held in front of the chest while using a firearm) and only those rounds which penetrate well enough to go clean through an arm AND THEN deep enough into the vitals to incapacitate will do the job. Or the shot may not be direct frontal, it may be from the side and through an arm.

We can't pick a carry load based on the "ideal" gunfight, because the ideal gunfight is the one that didn't happen. I've been in a couple of those. The ones that didn't happen. I don't seem to recall my caliber making a difference (9mm in one case, .40 in another). It is the non-ideal gunfights for which we prepare.

The recommendation is that a defensive load should both expand and penetrate 12 inches in ballistic gelatin. Anybody have a .380 load that will do this? 8 inches might be fine for a frontal shot, but 12 would be better.

The .380 is the only caliber for which I think "dutch loading" might actually be practical. The FMJ should get you the extra penetration in case your JHP doesn't reach the vitals. If you can place 2 shots COM you've covered all your bases. The problem is that you can't really find high-quality FMJ ammo (clean, low flash powder with good quality control, good crimp, sealed primers, etc). So I think a good compromise is a load that will penetrate 10 inches, such as the 90 grain Hornady XTP.

You do have to keep in mind that the barrel length will make a big difference. The Federal 90 grain Hydra-shok from a 3.25 inch barrel (PPK/S) (bottom of page) expanded too much and only penetrated 6.7 inches while the same load from a 2.75 inch barrel (probably Kel-Tec P3AT) didn't expand as much and actually penetrated 12 inches reliably (brass fetcher).

For my P3AT (when I get one this weekend) I'm going with the Federal 90 grain Hydra-shok. If I had a longer barrel, I'd go with the XTP instead or stagger one round of JHP with one round of high-quality FMJ.

 

[dmarbell]

Kel-Tec size?

.380 is 9mm short (9x17)
9mm is 9mm long (9x19)

So why is there such a big difference between the size and weight of Kel-Tec P-11 and P3-AT? Does the gun have to be larger and heavier to handle the extra powder charge in the 9mm?

Danny

 

[nemoaz]

Deleted after more sober reflection.

 

[Geno]

.380 ACP

The .380 ACP is a great round for back-up. Use solids in winter and hollow points in summer, or solids year-round.

 

[choochboost]

Sorry buddy but Dr. Roberts is a flaming idiot. Bigger holes = Better results

+1.

Who's the idiot? I've already stated for the record that Dr. Roberts believes in bigger holes. If you knew anything about him or his research you would know this. Since you don't know anything about him, how are you qualified to consider him an idiot and his findings (which are not unique to him) flawed? His research stands up to scrutiny and peer review. He is a member of the IWBA and has forgotten more about terminal ballistics than you or I will ever know.

 

[Hokkmike]

Having fired some "snappy" .380 rounds and from doing my own "phone book" penetration tests I feel that the .380 will do the job. Obviously bigger will do the job better but if you have a pistol why buy another? (except that they are always fun to buy)

 

[choochboost]

Phone books don't tell you anything about what a bullet will do in human tissue even if you "feel" it will do the job. Many people, like my wife, find .380s to be more "snappy" than a 9mm.

Time for me to bow out of this one.

 

[deputy tom]

Seeing that most of Europe for most of the first half of the 21st century relied on .32acp pistols for military and police use I would venture a guess that a more powerfull .380 would do much the same.I stress that it must be a quality,reliable firearm in either of these chamberings but I even carry a quality,reliable .25acp on certain occaissions.I'd rather carry a .38SPL as a minimum but will do what needs to be done . I'll admit that this is for CCW and for HD I'd rather have a 12ga pump.YMMV.tom.

Also don't overlook the Makarov in 9X18 Makarov cal.Their .380acp could be another option.Excellent quality.tom.

 

[shadowalker]

For home defense I'd pick something bigger or use a 12 gauge with #1 or #00 buck if you have it available, the odds will be in a lot more in your favor.

Shot placement does matter but sizes is also important, heavier bullets penetrate deeper, are much less likely to deflect once they hit the target and don't rely on expansion to cause damage to the target. An unexpanded 45 ACP round is about as big as a fully expanded 9mm round but considerably heavier and will have greater penetration even at slower velocities.

Big calibers mean nothing if you can't get good shot placement but good placement means nothing if your caliber is too anemic to penetrate deep enough to stop the threat.

 

[glocktoberfest]

In my experience .380 FMJ feeds more reliably than JHP. YMMV.

Bingo ! , my colt mustang ll does not like JHP . I thought / hoped it was the magazine , it wasn't . ( after a new $40 mag ) I was trying to use the best defensive ammo possible . Just find a brand / type the feeds well and practice .

 

[tinygnat219]

Wow... all this love and not love about the .380. Folks, just realize it is what it is. It's a mediocre self-defense round. However, with current JHP loads like Federal's 90gr, and the 102 Grain Golden Saber, the .380 has entered into the realm of acceptable handgun to use. Granted, it's at the bottom of the chart and a bigger / faster / better bullet is good to use, but don't count the .380 out.

 

[ozwyn]

My almost-worthless .02

do your job on shot placement, and be generous with sending extra rounds into the target to be certain, and it should work fine.

Don't be ammo stingy when your life is at risk. One shot stop numbers can be argued all day with loads and situations, so don't count on just one bullet to do the job

 

[MCgunner]

So why is there such a big difference between the size and weight of Kel-Tec P-11 and P3-AT? Does the gun have to be larger and heavier to handle the extra powder charge in the 9mm?

Danny

Sounds like the ballistics flame war (happens all the time in more innocuous threads than this) has passed up your honest question, so I'll attempt to explain. The 9mm Luger is a MUCH more high pressure (ergo higher power) load than the .380. The SAAMI pressure limit is 18,900 cup (copper units pressure) and for the 9x19 is listed in Speer's #11 manual as a 35,700 cup pressure limit. I'm not sure the cut off for standard pressure and +P, the manual just lists the 35,700 limit for loads in this publication. I'm assuming that's a +P load because max loads in this manual are HOT!

So, you see, the pressure limit of the 9x19 far exceeds the .380. The reason is 9mm guns are delay blowback/locked breech guns for the most part. The guns are bulkier because of the locked breech designs and beefier slides to handle the higher pressures. .38o guns are simple blow backs and this is why their pressures must be kept low. This is also why there are so many pot metal junk guns built for 'em.

However, the P3AT is a locked breech gun! In fact, the colt Mustang, and a few other .380s were locked breech designs. But, this allows them to have even less slide weight and be lighter and smaller yet! Add to this, the .380 has a recommended OAL of just .984" and the 9x19 OAL is 1.169", so the 9x19 grip and magazine are going to be larger.

So, your answer is in the pressure limits of the two cartridges. All that extra pressure in the 9mm allows it to produce twice the energy levels of the .380 and shoot heavier bullets, up to 147 grains, to boot. The gun that contains all that power and extra bullet length must be larger. The smallest 9 on the market, not +P rated, but still 1 1/2 times more powerful than the .380, is the Rorbaugh. I'm not sure the dimensions, but if you can't put a Rorbaugh in your pocket, you don't have a pocket.

Also, the P11 in your question is 1" wide because it's a double stack high capacity magazine. You can get a flush fit 12 round mag for it, standard is 10 rounds. The P3AT is single stack.

 

[defjon]

You know for about two years the only handgun I had was a Bersa Thunder .380.

I don't live in a very dangerous or high crime area. If I HAD to use it- God forbid- I was confident in my ability to have placed all seven shots accurately, even under stress.

It was my one gun, and I got the best (IMO)- 102 grain Golden Sabers. Great big hollow points for such a little round.

I did some testing- the results were actually pretty impressive.

Internet commandos will mock this round, but a .380, to a perp, is going to feel a LOT like a 9mm. My bet is shoot a guy with both, he won't know the difference.

If it works, if you can shoot it- be done with it. Get the best ammo you can. Practice whenever you can. Just have fun. The world isn't ending and the worst case senarios don't happen 99% of the time. If you aren't living in gangland USA, your .380 will likely be all you'll need.

Remember, also. A round of mostly ANYTHING (maybe not .25...) to the head is an insta-kill. A .380 has more than enough power to splatter. It is ALL about shot placement. When the SHTF...lady luck plays a big part as well. Some guy with a little .22 will come out on top. Some experienced badass with a .45 full of jhps will bite the dust. Who knows? Shoot your gun well. Load it well. Do your part. The .380 will kill a man DEAD, and without too much trouble. Just do some tests, don't get your info from some computer.

There is a lot of heat coming off of this round. Again, I recommend golden sabers for serious use. For practice, whatever is cheapest and will feed.

Your mileage will vary, but for years my Bersa and a single mag protected me and mine, and I slept soundly, confident in both the piece and my skill with it. Not to sound like a braggart- just do the trigger time!

Now? Well now I have about a billion guns lol...it IS addictive as someone mentioned. Now I have big bore guns and lots of them, but the .380 is still around! I have 100% confidence in the round. Why? I'm firing more than one of those big 102 grain hollowpoints! So the perp is absorbing at least more than one shot, even if I missed, there are seven on tap, and now I have another mag. No worries!

 

[dmarbell]

Kel-Tec P11 vs. P3AT size

MCgunner,

Thanks for the reply.

Sounds like the ballistics flame war (happens all the time in more innocuous threads than this) has passed up your honest question, so I'll attempt to explain.

Now I have another question regarding .380 ballistics, perceived or actual. FMJs penetrate and JHPs expand, each having it's own strengths and weaknesses within the caliber. Would it not be possible to load alternating rounds in a magazine, that is, one FMJ, one JHP, one FMJ, etc? Assuming the P3AT, or other .380, would handle the feeds, four shots would give you two penetrations and two expansions. Best of both worlds?

That brings me to my gun, a P-11. Why can't I load alternating FMJ and JHP loads in the 9mm? One of the knocks on 9mm is that FMJs or even ball bullets over penetrate, and JHPs might lack penetration.

I have been thinking about buying a 9mm revolver so I can buy one type of ammo. Now the alternating rounds has me thinking. I'm sure the feed issue will raise it's ugly head in this discussion regarding semi-autos, but it should go out the window with moon clips in a 9mm revolver. Five or six rounds of alternating penetrating and expanding ammo?

And speaking of the feed issue, if a P-11 feeds a magazine of FMJs fine, and a magazine of JHPs fine, should it not feed a mixed load fine? The gun doesn't know and shouldn't care which round is coming next.

Danny

 

[p35]

FIE was an importer and the quality of their guns depends on the maker. I think they were once the importers of the Walther PPK, for example. Don't generalize too much about their quality; try the gun out and see if it's reliable with hollowpoint ammo.

 

[40jjb]

380 acp

I agree there are nice little guns out there for this cal.. I recomend a P3AT Kel tec, Small enough to carry in any situation and reliable. In this cal. I recomend Fiocchis FMJ, Gold Dots, Cor bon. Practice and be safe..