.380 or .38

[Mello]

Seems like you have to decide what you are willing to trade off in the choices you make.

A five shot 38 special revolver will have a width of about 1.3" and be 6" long.
A 380 acp like a Kahr KP3833 is 0.75" wide and 4.9" long.

Of these two, the 380 is more concealable.

As to choice of rounds, Loyalist Dave covered that well in his post #19.

 

[pps]

Just one thing to add to loyalist daves post. The Buffalo Bore LBT style bullet for the .380 looks good. I figure with .380 I had better just bet on penetration and a big a$$ meplat.

Item 27A/20: 100gr. Hard-Cast FN @ 1125 fps 280 ft. lbs

I would consider this round if it feeds reliably.

 

[rhoggman]

.380 FMJ "might" pass through, not "likely". As far as being "close" to each other...,

.38 Special 158 g LRN @ 770 ft/s = 208 ft-lbs (old original load)
.380 95 g FMJ @ 980 ft/s = 203 ft-lbs

while the .380 stays at 205 - 215 ft-lbs of energy with current loads.

More Buffalo Bore stats:
90 gr. Speer Gold Dot J.H.C. @ 1175 fps 276 ft. lbs.

Like I said .380 ACP is right up there with 38 Special when selecting the right ammo.

Plain old Magtech FMJ is right up there with plain old 38 SPC. I don't want to get into what a .380 auto can and can't do, but I would almost garuntee you that at close range (withing 10yards) .380 ACP FMJ ammo would pass directly through the average human torso.

Anyways, it goes without saying that 38SPC +P puts the .380 ACP to shame.

With a revolver you are probably going to get a mx of 5 shots (unless you also carry a speedloader in which you will get 10. The snubby will most likely reduce the effectiveness of the cartride while cause significant recoil.
Small frame revolvers are kind of diffucult to reload with a speedloader, although there are some speedloaders that make this process easier.

With something like the LCP you get 7 shots in an easily concealable package, and with a 6 round spare mag that is also easy (non bulky) to carry you are going to be able to reaload quicker with is as well.

When people try to group the .380 in with .22, .25, and .32 they are really doing everybody a disservice to reality. 2 or 3 .380 ACP shots to the upper torso may not drop someone in their tracks, but the same is true for a .45. Everyone knows a .45 is more effective, but lets get real folks. More than 3 holes in the upper torso with a .380 is going to most likely result in a life ending situation for the target.

 

[MICHAEL T]

380 ball goves over 16" in jell test after test It will go thru a person One reason for ball bad record overpenteration That why I use the copper DPX in all my 380's
In fact I use DPX in all my carry pistols 9 and 45 also.

 

[revshooter]

I love my Kel-Tec .380

 

[orionengnr]

None of the above.

My Kahr PM9 is smaller than the six j-frames I've owned, more reliable than the four Kel-Tecs I've owned, and more powerful than the LCP that I currently own (but do not carry, due to my lack of faith in the .380 cartridge)

 

[Captain Bligh]

I have a Sig p232 and a S&W Model 60.

I call it a draw. The snubbie will never conceal as well as the auto because of the size of a revolver cylinder vs. a narrow slide.

Round count goes to the auto.

I have more confidence in stopping power with the revolver, particularly if loaded with .357.

If I had to part with one, it's goodbye Sig.

 

[Pilot]

When I need a slim, light gun I choose a .380 in a Beretta M85FS (single stack). The nine round capacity and performance of the Corbon or Buffalo Bore .380's is fine. I like snubby .38's also, but prefer the little Beretta.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

.380 ACP FMJ ammo would pass directly through the average human torso.

BEWARE of lab tests vs actual shooting results. I saw 8 dudes shot in various places, all with ball ammo .380 ammo, at Medstar in DC in the same night. (They were all shot at different locations of the city btw). 3 were shot in the legs and the round went through, the other five were all shot in the Arse and only one of the ball rounds reached the hip bone. All were shot at under 10 yards, in drug confrontations. Several were at point blank range. Sorry folks, but the average .380 ball again MAY pass through a human torso. Don't bet your life on the gelatin results. The .32 Walther was really used by Germans so their uniforms would look good while having a gun in the pocket. It wasn't so good so they made the 9mm Kurz (short) aka .380.

I carry a revolver as a backup, as I might be fighting with my strong-hand, OR might be injured and only have one good arm. So much for clearing a jam in a semi-auto. Yes I have seen and done the drills, and they ALL depend on some use from the damaged arm.

You folks who carry in a pocket instead of a holster, ever wonder what will happen if you have to fire a semi from inside the coat pocket at the badguy at really close range? I'm pretty confident my S&W 940 revolver will get off all five rounds of 9mm inside the coat if I have to..., I wonder if the lining of the pocket will do to cycling semi-auto?

LD

 

[Maia007]

I go back and forth between carrying the SW 442 and the Kahr PM9....which are comparatively closer in bullet performance than the .38 and the .380 will ever be.

Used to be you had to go pocket .380 to get similar to a .38 snub in terms of size/weight/concealment factors (Sig 230, Walther PPK, etc.). Not any more.

Why step down to a .380's performance when you can have a 9mm auto which is similar size and weight for a reasonably similar price?

 

[MostlyHarmless]

I have a Kel Tec P3AT and it will conceal better and in more modes of carry than an SP101 or a S&W K frame, the main reasons being the lack of a cylinder bulge and the shorter overall length. In a suitable pocket holster the P3AT fits in most pockets and if a bulge is noticed nearly all people think it's a wallet. I carry a money clip and a very small credit card wallet to avoid any mental questions by observers as to why I might have two wallets.

First shot reliability on DAO autos and revolvers is similar with the autos perhaps having an almost negligible edge since theoretically something could jam the cylinder on a revolver and cause first-shot problems. Subsequent shot reliability is better on revolvers but you trade that for a higher likelihood of a jam that can't be cleared in the field.

You also want to think about reloads. Speed loaders for revolvers don't conceal as well as magazines for autos.

I've come to the conclusion that there is no meaningful difference in terminal ballistics between a .38 snubbie and a .380 auto, so you're on the right track by focusing on other differences.

 

[snakeman]

you can't beat a snubby .38 loaded with hornady critical defense +p for self-defence. Easily concealed and plenty of stopping power even through heavy clothes. There is very little to go wrong with them and little to think about on a good double action. Just draw and shoot! NO SAFETY! NO JAMS! NO CLIPS FALLING OUT! AND NO FORGETTING TO CHAMBER A ROUND! The ultimate in dependability when life is on the line.

 

[Redhawk1]

You folks who carry in a pocket instead of a holster, ever wonder what will happen if you have to fire a semi from inside the coat pocket at the badguy at really close range?

Who would shoot a gun inside there pocket? Only people that watch movies too much, I would suspect.

 

[Redhawk1]

you can't beat a snubby .38 loaded with hornady critical defense +p for self-defence. Easily concealed and plenty of stopping power even through heavy clothes. There is very little to go wrong with them and little to think about on a good double action. Just draw and shoot! NO SAFETY! NO JAMS! NO CLIPS FALLING OUT! AND NO FORGETTING TO CHAMBER A ROUND! The ultimate in dependability when life is on the line.

People that actually practice with there guns don't worry about any of the above. From what you posted, I doubt you have ever had a semi-auto handgun, or it would appear that way.

The purpose of carrying a concealed gun, is for personal protection, and no matter what you carry, it is your reasonability to know the gun you intend on carrying. If you don't go to the range and practice, and know your gun inside and out, you should not be carrying. In my opinion you are not reasonable enough to carry if you can't take time to know your chosen weapon.

NO SAFETY! Not all semi-auto's have safes, i.e. double action only, even then being familiar with your gun negates that.

NO JAMS! Not every gun is 100% full proof, but get a reliable gun, and you would not have to worry about that.

NO CLIPS FALLING OUT! Only if you push the clip release, and if you practice with your gun, it will not happen.

AND NO FORGETTING TO CHAMBER A ROUND! I carry my semi-auto's with a round in the chamber. Once again being familiar with your gun negates that.

 

[rhoggman]

Who would shoot a gun inside there pocket? Only people that watch movies too much, I would suspect.

I have wondered about this as well. People make this argument often when praising the benefits of a revolver and it makes sense that it would operationaly be more adventageous to shoot a revolver covered by fabric, than a semi-auto in the same situation, but who the hell would shoot from inside a pocket anyways?

Then again it is really kind of hard to surmise about what type of situation you could end up in. The possibilities are endless to the credit of the "pocket shooters".

Needless to say... the ability to shoot from the pocket or lack there of has never influenced my reasoning behind a firearm purchase. Unless you plan to carry in a large jacket pocket this is pretty worthless. Personally, I like to keep my handguns closer to my body. I would never throw a firearm in a jacket pocket where it could flap around. To each there own....

Would there be any safety issues involved in fabric covering the muzzle? I would like to see a Myth Busters episode on this.

 

[JR47]

BEWARE of lab tests vs actual shooting results. I saw 8 dudes shot in various places, all with ball ammo .380 ammo, at Medstar in DC in the same night. (They were all shot at different locations of the city btw). 3 were shot in the legs and the round went through, the other five were all shot in the Arse and only one of the ball rounds reached the hip bone. All were shot at under 10 yards, in drug confrontations. Several were at point blank range. Sorry folks, but the average .380 ball again MAY pass through a human torso. Don't bet your life on the gelatin results. The .32 Walther was really used by Germans so their uniforms would look good while having a gun in the pocket. It wasn't so good so they made the 9mm Kurz (short) aka .380.

Dave, I used to be in the field, sending the odd victim to Medstar (PGFD), and I honestly found that, in 35 years of experience, that the only thing that you could count on with a handgun, was that you couldn't count on it. I also have to observe that most people who are shot in the butt aren't shot at point-blank range, they're moving away as fast as they humanly can.

As far as the reason that Germany, Italy, and the rest of Europe used the .32 ACP had NOTHING to do with looks. The guns were also worn in holsters, on the hip. In fact, the Germans issued FAR more Walthers in .32 or .380 to police, and security, than they ever put in the field. The military used the P38 where pistols were issued as much as possible.

As to energy figures, most manufacturers use a 4" barrel. The 2" of some snubbies costs a good bit of velocity.

Speer makes a 38 Special +P that is designed for barrels of less than 4". Load number 23921 is a 135 gr. bullet, moving at 860 fps, for 222 ft/lbs.

Buffalo Bullet makes the 27A loading in .380 ACP +P. Out of the 2.74" barrel of the Kel-Tec P3AT, specifically, it produces, with a 100 gr. bullet, 1061 fps., with an energy level of 249.7 ft/lbs. These are factory numbers, published and available to anyone.

I think that you'll find that MOST .38 Special ammo, in 2" barrels, or 2 1/2", is pretty much right along those lines. As with anything else, semi-auto cartridges were always loaded pretty lightly prior to the 1980's. Many still are. That doesn't mean, however, that they have to be.

The .380 platform is available in smaller packages, that still allows for control, than the revolver. They tend to be a bit cheaper, in many cases. They re-load faster, and hold more ammunition per loading. They are a great choice.

If, however, you are interested in esoteric bullet shapes, or just like the revolver, you aren't going to be unarmed with one.

It's pretty much a choice of your own, with the confidence of that choice much more important than the choice itself.

 

[mongo4567]

I have an airweight snubnose .38 and a Keltec P3AT, I like them both. I usually carry the Keltec .380 because of the size and weight. I never leave the Keltec behind.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Who would shoot a gun inside there pocket? Only people that watch movies too much, I would suspect.

Or the guy the badguy had covered with a full sized handgun, and who the badguy ordered to hand over his wallet, so he put his hand into his pocket where he kept his snubbie, and shot and hit the BG (last year - actual defensive shooting incident).

(guys I was being flippant about the "German" use of the Walther and the uniforms. )

As for point blank in the butt, sorry but the powder burns on these guys arses showed they were shot well under the 10-yard-it-will-go-through-a-human-torso standard posted previously, and most of the guys running away are hit at under 30 feet too. Something to do with paying drug debts, and the .380 is popular because it hurts like crap in the arse, but doesn't usually kill the guy that owes the money)

Again, don't get me wrong, the .380 isn't a bad cartridge, just not as good as a small 9mm or a .38 +P. I wouldn't feel bad about having one on me, and using it to put holes in an attacker while I fled. Using it to step up and defend others with me (like wife and kids) or defending a near by person being attacked, not my choice.

Look the .38 S&W is listed as 24 ft-lbs less than the .380, and who would advocate the making of a 5 shot revolver for SD using that cartrige with the .380 being the better of those two rounds? The .38 +P from a 2" snubbie is listed at 20 ft-lbs better than the .380, so the same argument as far as round performance would also exist, and that .38 +P round is listed at only 95 grains. Put it into a 3" SP101, or in my case shoot a 9mm from a cylinder capable of being made to chamber a cartridge the length of a .357 and you trump the .380.

http://www.volny.cz/buchtik/Revo/Ballistic_Info_komplet.htm

LD

 

[HexHead]

To the OP, split the difference with a S&W J-frame like a 442 or 642. Smaller and lighter than a SP-101 and more powerful cartridge than a .380. Very easy to pocket carry with a good pocket holster like a Mika.

I just picked up a .380, a Colt Mustang for the rare times when the Smitty is too large. I'll carry Hornady Critical Defense loads in it.

But why carry a .3* when you can carry a .45? My Colt New Agent is the same size as my J-frame, and holds 7+1 rounds of .45acp. I carry 200 gr. +P in it.

See how the New Agent disappears under the J-Frame?...

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I opted for .380acp over a 5-shot .38 spcl but advise anyone doing so to practice lots with the semi. anyone considering a semi should choose a da/sa model IMO.
I later got a Makarov for carry, a little more grunt then the .380acp both of them I carried hot handloads, XTP's.
the Mak replaced my bed-post mounted .357mag Ruger also. my .357 I carry as a woods-bum pistol now as it has the power/range over the .380acp or Mak 9mm.
a semi-auto requires lots of practice to familarize with and select the most reliable ammo IMO, so the advantage of additional rounds available and slim lines comes at a cost.

 

[The_Shootist]

Nods - but BOY the MAK is sure accurate. I can easily hollow out COM of a target at 7 yds with my Bulgy Mak with little or no effort, crummy sites and all.

I started carrying a 642 stuffed with BB "standard" pressure rounds to replace the Mak in my pocket simply because Mak ammo was getting scarce to carry/practice with.

The Mak ammo situation (surprisingly) seems to be easing, with Silver Bear FMJ or HP 94 gr ammo avaliable or Wolf FMJ ammo also out there at AIM or ammunitiontogo etc.

I'm strongly considering going back to my Mak for summer carry using either the SB HP or maybe the Hornady SD Mak ammo, and plinking alot with the the WOLF or SB.

I mean - you have 9 immediate rounds on call with the Mak and another 16 (carrying two mags ) for quick reloads, whats not to like. The accuracy and rock solid reliable nature of that pistol also puts it above a snubby, along with ease of carry (I've never felt it too heavy for pocket carry).

With the Mak you get a beefier .380 round that may be theoretically less in the punch dept than a .38 spl+P round, but you make up for it in terms of accuracy and firepower.

 

[JR47]

Dave, your quoted site has nothing about barrel lengths. It also deals in the "best and worst" loadings, without identifying them. I provided two readily available rounds that are current, and the factory specs for both. Can you do the same?

9mm, or .357 Magnum aren't being considered here. Heck, you could also throw in 5.56 from an AR pistol, just to skew the facts further.

I also never bought into the "I carry this cause it hurts, but won't kill" idea. There are a LOT of drug dealers who think that a .380 and a 9mm P are the same. After all, they both say "9". I have first-hand experience with that, by the way. Never met a drug-dealer who carried one gun for "hurting a bad debt". and another for "killing".

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Dave, your quoted site has nothing about barrel lengths.

It clearly lists +P 2" on the table.

Skew the facts; I am presenting facts. You don't like the source because it backs up my argument. Find different data.

Who said anything about carrying two guns, or are YOU into skewing the discussion? (Ya know you can review previous comments, and I too have lots of experience.)

The point was that supposedly at 30' the .380 will "likely" go through the human torso and in five shootings, at less than 30'..., IT DIDN'T in all the cases that I saw that day. Last time I checked the hips are in the torso.

The persons were shot in the arse, deliberately. I thought they all came from the same shooting scene and all had their backs to a group of shooters in some wierd scenario. Nope, all different locations, but all shot in the arse, all with powder burns of some extent (so not over 30'). NOT 9mm NOT .38 +P, and not anything larger. (There were some shot with 9mm and .45 that night, but they weren't shot in the butt. )

But you're right, all the shooters that day were too stupid to use anything larger and too stupid to shoot at anything higher than the butt........, or maybe they knew what they were doing?

Again and for the last time,..., the .380 is fine when you're alone to surprise the BG who thinks you unarmed, and to create a bunch of holes in the BG to allow you to escape. In my opinion, backed up by personal observation and data, it simply isn't equal to the .38 +P or the 9mm. If concealment is the absolute paramount concern, then by all means use the .380.

LD

 

[jjohnson]

It'll Do. 9 x 380 vs 5 or 6 x .38

Well, I have a place for the .380.

I carry a Makarov in .380 - bought it for under $150 a few years ago, Russian export model with adjustable sights.

Oh, MAN, that thing shoots like a house on fire.

Absolutely reliable, and it will outshoot my Glocks most days.

I much prefer handguns with calibers that start with "4" but they're hard for me to conceal in my business attire. I don't think much of the 9mm/38 calibers but since concealability is a real issue for me, I figure packing a .380 is way better than packing nothing. I do have a KelTec P40 (discontinued) that failed at the range by shearing its slide stop, rendering it unoperable so I don't have enough faith in it to CCW. My CA .44 Bulldog is a "coat pocket" carry, and that's fine when a little bulk is okay.

You can buy your ammo online at places like cheaperthandirt.com, Natchez or Midsouth, Widners or Grafs. Even Midway or ammotogo.com. Most folks that manufacture SD ammo have one or more "premium" high performance loads to choose from.

I reload the bitty little round and since mine is such a good shooter, I practice with it at the range regularly.

I do have a Colt Agent - -small .38 - and I don't think I'd want to stand in FRONT of it, particularly loaded with premium SD ammo. I carry it sometimes, but it prints bigger in a IWB holster. The Makarov gives me 9 shots, which is fairly equivalent to the Agent's payload in terms of power. I view both choices as rock bottom minimum for SD, and 20 years ago wouldn't consider either one suited at all, but SD ammo has come a LONG way in recent years.

 

[Girodin]

There is no real difference in concealability between a 380 and a SP sized revolver.

I own both and would say that there is a world of difference. The sp101 cannot comfortably ride/hide in the front pocket of every pair of pants that I own. I am not saying it cannot be concealed, but it is notably bigger than my mustang and takes more to conceal it and carry it comfrotably.