38sp 158gr LSWC Keyholing All the time..

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Analogkid

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I cam across some 158gr LSWC's that i am having issues with. I have ran up a few loads with them. 4.9gr of Hodgdon cfe pistol and 3.5gr of Titegroup.

All of them keyhole dang near every time at 20'

I have some 160gr round nose lead Boolits that I got somewhere along the line that I have ran up with the same data. They punch great little holes all the time. Everything I load is done on a single stage with a lee factory crimp die. Nothing else I reload keyholes.

The 158 LSWC's seem to key hole no matter what I shoot them out of. It this common with these? I am only using the target hanger at the local range. There is no backer behind the paper target.
 
first thing I would check is the bullet diameter. An undersized bullet could cause this condition.
 
I haven't put CFE Pistol behind a 158 gr bullet, but have put it behind 125 gr LRNFP with great results. Very accurate with 5.6 grains powder. I actually like it better than 231.
 
Check diameter of projectiles and compare to barrel diameter. The only time I had this problem with cast bullets, they were too small. Best wishes
 
I always hear that the FCD can resize the bullets, but my LSWC are crimped in the groove and so the band is not touched. I seat to 1.484 and crimp to 1.481 or .003 in 38 SPCL. 45 LC comes out at 1.608 and 1.604 with a .004 crimp. The driving bands are never touched. If people are taper crimping roll crimp bullets or crimping above the groove that's their choice, but you can't blame LEE or the FCD for inconsistent results.

Maybe there is a misundertanding about roll crimping and that the depth of your crimp if you roll the case is what you shorten it.
 
Several different .357 projectiles..

I cast with wheel weights several (5 or 6) different projectiles for .38Spl./.357Mag.
These as cast bullets are Powder Coated, baked for 20min. @ 400 degrees and then sized to .358" diameter, and are loaded/shot in several S&W's with COMPLETE success..:)..Bill.
 
They are crown Bullets. They mic out at .358

I will check to see if the range will let me put a backer up.


I really like the CFE powder as well. Its fantastic in dang near everything I Reload for.
 
I'm with the backer crowd. I've had the same thing happen with a few SWC ripping targets where the backer was shot out. Seemed to be more prominent with slower loads too. Don't know if there's a connection there or not. Looked fine where the backer was not shot out.




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The loads you listed shouldn't be keyholing if the bullet is as you stated .358" diameter.

A true keyholing bullet will show a perfectly cut side outline of the bullet when they hit sideways. A loose hanging target without a cardboard backer will sometimes have a tear in the bullet hole that looks like a flap of paper and may be mistaken for keyholing. The only time I've had real keyholing with a hand-load was when trying 148gr LWCHB loaded hollow up. The bullets where too small a diameter and wouldn't stabilize when loaded this way.

Check your barrel for leading. Really severe lead accumulation could destabilize the bullet.
 
styles said:
I always hear that the FCD can resize the bullets, but my LSWC are crimped in the groove and so the band is not touched. I seat to 1.484 and crimp to 1.481 or .003 in 38 SPCL. 45 LC comes out at 1.608 and 1.604 with a .004 crimp. The driving bands are never touched. If people are taper crimping roll crimp bullets or crimping above the groove that's their choice, but you can't blame LEE or the FCD for inconsistent results.

Maybe there is a misundertanding about roll crimping and that the depth of your crimp if you roll the case is what you shorten it.
Click to expand...


The forward driving band isn't the issue. It's the entire bullet bearing surface that's inside the case getting resized. The resizing occurs at the mouth of the die.


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Barrels are clear. No leading. I'm pretty anal about that. This definitely doesn't look like the outline on the boolit. It looks like the flap scenario as mentioned above.

I guess I'll check and see if I can run a backer next time. They seem to be at least somewhat accurate.

The exposed portion of the boolit when seated is still .358 and I use a decent flare.
 
It might help to use targets of a different kind of paper. If you get the old style printed on the recycled brownish colored paper, they have no directional "grain" and will probably work just fine without a backing.
 
Steve C said:
The loads you listed shouldn't be keyholing if the bullet is as you stated .358" diameter.

A true keyholing bullet will show a perfectly cut side outline of the bullet when they hit sideways. A loose hanging target without a cardboard backer will sometimes have a tear in the bullet hole that looks like a flap of paper and may be mistaken for keyholing. The only time I've had real keyholing with a hand-load was when trying 148gr LWCHB loaded hollow up. The bullets where too small a diameter and wouldn't stabilize when loaded this way.

Check your barrel for leading. Really severe lead accumulation could destabilize the bullet.
Click to expand...
good description- reminds me of a "hanging chad"
 
The forward driving band isn't the issue. It's the entire bullet bearing surface that's inside the case getting resized. The resizing occurs at the mouth of the die.
Click to expand...

The Lee FC sizing ring is a max SAAMI diameter sizer that only sizes portions of the case that are greater than the maximum SAAMI case diameter. Its purpose is to remove any bulges that may prevent chambering. There is no sizing the bullet unless that portion of the cases OD is out of spec which it shouldn't be in the first place. All bullets are squeezed down a bit during the seating operation, this is what provides the case neck tension. This is normal and anyone who has pulled bullets will see this in both lead and jacketed bullets whether ran through a normal seating crimping die or a Lee FC die.
 
Why is it many people in forums always jump to the worst case scenario instead of suggesting the easy and most obvious fixes or causes? It's like that person we all know that when you tell them you have a headache they say, "I hope it's not a brain aneurysm!" On this forum we have had countless threads asking about keyholing and many times it was a paper target without a backer making it look like a keyhole. Yes, there are times the bullet is improperly sized or the velocity is to low and the other reasons posted here already but IMO we should not jump to the worse case scenario first.
 
Don't use the factory crimp die with cast or swaged lead bullets.
It has a carbide sizer ring in the base of the die. This sizes the case down to ensure positive feeding and chambering of the loaded rounds but it wrecks havoc on the soft non elastic bullet.

Stop using the factory crimp die and use standard seating/crimping die. The only PISTOL cartridge "factory crimp die" I use is the 9mmPara. It has a tapered case and only the base of the case touches the sizer ring.
 
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