4 AM idea: the Budget Subversive rifle

[Correia]

5.45 is the worst choice.

It isn't common at all.

Domestically there is no production. We're dependant on imports.

Internationally it is extremely scarce. The only country using 5.45 is Russia.

Even most of the former Warsaw pact countries are using 5.56 weapons and joining Nato. All of the major Eastern countries use 5.56.

China uses a proprietary cartridge, with 7.62x39 being the secondary. And they don't pass out their good guns like the Russians did during the Cold War.

African and South American countries that were supplied guns by the Soviets were given 7.62x39 guns. The 74 was never passed out like the 47.

So basically, for all over the world use, you're gonna find 7.62x39, 5.56, and even .308 before you find 5.45.

 

[Davo]

How about a light kel-tec esque carbine quick changable between 5.56, x39, and .22LR?

 

[Dionysusigma]

I wonder how well along polymer technology is. Would it be possible to make a SAFE polymer barrel and receiver?

 

[MD_Willington]

Make a domestic Saiga like rifle that takes M16 magazines... done deal.

 

[SaMx]

now I just got a crazy idea. almost as crazy as your idea. basically making a semi-auto rifle like you describe would be difficult to make cheap enough. But what if we changed the design criteria?
Make it a manual action.
Think about this. The SR-16 and SR-47. Both are built as a super simple and easy to make bolt action rifle, using lots of polymers like you originally describe. It can be solid and light, and have a version is 5.56 NATO and one in 7.62x39. They would use m-16/AR-16 and AK-47 magazines respectively. Make versions in 16" and 20" barreled versions, with folding stocks. It would have military style sights like an AR-15, and also have a built in rail for a scope. Maybe it can be made as a pump or lever action instead of bolt, if it's feasible. The point is to have a rifle like you describe but cheaper than most self loaders.

 

[dstorm1911]

SAMX, ya take an AK seal the gas port, you then make a new (gas piston) that is shorter by 1" next you make a slide to fit around the barrel, now you cut a 1/4" slot in each side of the now bare gas tube running 4" you build your slide/forarm so that it has an ear on each side of the gas tube a hardened rod goes through the slots infront of your modified gas piston to tie both ears together, ya now have a pump action AK in any caliber ya want.

you can either remove the recoil spring in place (it no longer has any function other than holding the dust cover on) or leave it to act as a forward assist to push your slide forward after ya rack it back, and if your rythem is any good ya can make it a VERY short slide action as it actually only requires 1/2" of travel to unlock the bolt if your timing was right ya could rack the slide as the rifle recoils causing it to function like a semi auto but without the gas operation.

 

[roscoe]

Well, then you might as well have a lever gun. A lever would be faster than working a horizontal bolt.

 

[Grin Reaper]

+1 funfaler!

"We" outnumber "them" by a factor of hundreds! Maybe thousands!

Why not remind those who aren't convinced that you 'deserve' or 'need' guns just how many of us there are, and what all of "us voters" expect to be done to help safeguard our rights. Pick up a few post cards and send one to each senator and representative. Don't wait and do it later. You won't do it later. "American Idol' or some other waste of time will come along.

There are PLENTY of affordable rifles in America. What we need are RIFLEMEN who are politically active.

 

[Caimlas]

I like the idea of a rifle which isn't semi-automatic, as it might be more feasible to make it on a budget. However, I have to wonder what real price advantage there would be. As I stated in another thread, a new barrel of any kind is probably going to cost $100 or more on it's own (as opposed to a 40-year-old import being sold off cheap to pay national debts); the receiver, and the technology to make it, will be roughly the same regardless, provided it's a simply designed semi-auto (and there are plenty of simple, cheap-to-produce semi-auto designs out there which could be modernized for the materials); things like the trigger, stock, bolt, sights, etc. would be identical regardless of the action type.

So, making the rifle a bolt or pump design (not a lever design - they're seemingly a bit more complex, IIRC) would merely be a matter of intent and planning (unless I'm missing something, of course). Envision an SKS, for a moment, and compare the complexity of the receiver to (say) any old bolt action. A bolt action rifle has a round bolt (generally), which is (afaik) more expensive to make than the crude bolt on an SKS. Same goes for the receiver on most such guns.

And, the SKS design could be simplified quite a bit, or at least changed significantly, in order to accommodate modern practices (as I'm sure others could be - I'm just most familiar with the SKS, so that's what i'm talking about). For instance (just off the top of my head), modify it to use removable magazines, thereby removing the automatic bolt hold-open mechanism and the requisite supporting device.

 

[dstorm1911]

caimlas, they already have a rifle even more simplified than the SKS which uses removable mags and can be produced new for a $100 bill, the code name is AKM47

Now I said produced, if your going to try and build it by buying new barrels ($80 ea) and so on....... it will coost ya more but if ya have an already paid for shop ie; arsenal or other manufactureing facility the average cost to produce is $100 and less (the Romanians use all their reject parts from building milspec AK to build the WASR rifles that get shipped here, they sell em at $13 ea to Century arms before import etc...

The SKS is actually a very complex system by comparison which is very machine intensive which means $$ I machined out a bunch of SKS recievers awhile back (as well as bolts etc..) I tied up 2 days into one reciever while I can and do build AKs everyday at about 2-3 per day..........

The SKS relies on a drop bolt locking system useing a locking shoulder I just finished cutting two of my recievers for a belt fed conversion (a project talked bout on several other forums) this limits ya to low pressure rnds while the AK uses a rotary bolt which can be setup with multiple locking lugs etc.. the result is the ability to handle higher pressure ammo...

Which if ya take a look at the SAIGA line they have covered all of the primary ammo choices all based on the extremally simple AK base.........

 

[Magnum88C]

First ofall, you'll never produce such a rifle in the US. You simply have to pay your people too much (because they, in turn, have to pay their bills. People simply can't afford to work for what you'd have to pay to make such a rifle a reality.

Second, plastic this, plastic that. Sorry, I can get behind an inexpensive rifle, but not a cheap one. You DO NOT want to make critical parts such as receivers and fire control groups out of plastic.

Third, 5.45x39 is a horrible choice. There is NO supplier but Russia. It can disappear with a moment's notice and no recourse. 7.62x39 is FAR more available. Even if imports get 100% cut off, it will still be around. There are components for handloaders, and domestic commercial production. Even during the "drought" a coupkle years back there was ammo. Problem is, it cost as much as any other commercial ammo. People didn't WANT to pay the price to get it, it wasn't that none was available.

Fourth, there are already centerfire rifles that are about as cheap as you're going to get. It's called an SKS. Are there features that YOU don't like about it? Maybe, but it's a preference thing. Fact is, you can't find that quality of rifle for under $200 anywhere. Ammo is cheap. No it's not $70 a case anymore, but it's still cheaper than most centerfire out there other than 7.62x54R. IMO, if you can't afford better, get 'em while you can.

If the SKS costs too much, buy a Mosin Nagant. Yeah, it's not an autoloader and there's no ninja gear available for it to make you feel like a commando, but it's powerful, reasonably accurate, reliable as a stone, and ammo is dirt cheap. For the price of just an SKS, you can get a Mosin with it's associated kit and 880 rounds of ammo. For the price of an AK, you can get 2 or 3 such outfits. For a GOOD AR, you can outfit a squad with Mosins.

If you have no armament, you can still get good stuff cheap, but get it NOW, while it's still available.
If you don't vote WHY NOT? Don't give me the BS that it doesn't do any good. Less than half of the qualified voters vote, a third party could easily get voted in, but people are too LAZY.

Not to rain on the original poster's parade, but the realities of manufacturing make such an idea infeasable in the current economic state the country is in. You'd have to produce it elsewhere, and then run the import gauntlet, and maybe be put out of business if imports from that country are for some reason blocked.

 

[GRIZ22]

Make a domestic Saiga like rifle that takes M16 magazines... done deal.
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A good idea but to make it in the US will at least double the price.

they sell em at $13 ea to Century arms before import etc...


Import duty on firearms is not high. It is not the government jacking up the price it's free enterprise. Charge what the traffic will bear.

 

[Owen]

what if this business were actually an NGO who specialized in arming the downtrodden.

I'm pretty sure Darfur and Rwanda would have been much different if 30 or 40 thousand rifles and ammo had been dropped into the troubled areas.

 

[dstorm1911]

Gri22, the markup is ALL Century, I've been to Romania twice in just the past year representing another importer on parts sets, I have several friends I've made over the years at both Arsenals and while Cugir no longer produces small arms the folks at Sadar see Century Int much as the rest of the world views Wal-mart, they will only pay $13 ea their cost to get em here is $9 per rifle....... the rest is profit even at dealer rate of $230 ea they are makin a killin on sellin the ol pile of reject parts....

 

[roscoe]

I'm pretty sure Darfur and Rwanda would have been much different if 30 or 40 thousand rifles and ammo had been dropped into the troubles areas.

I'm with you on that one. Maybe Bill Gates would do it - the $50 African defense rifle, like that $100 laptop they make for Africa.

 

[Caimlas]

Such an NGO would never pass the muster of the various world governments and organizations which make a killing off arms trade. It's a monopolized industry, and to just give away arms would be a strict no-no. You can only "give" arms to government-sanctioned and/or controlled groups...

 

[MD_Willington]

Manual action, well that would be the Saiga variant that they get in the UK, a straight pull bolt action AKM

 

[Owen]

Such an NGO would never pass the muster of the various world governments and organizations which make a killing off arms trade. It's a monopolized industry, and to just give away arms would be a strict no-no. You can only "give" arms to government-sanctioned and/or controlled groups...

Hence the NGO designation

How much is a stealthed out C-130 running for these days?

 

[Caimlas]

A wee bit more than is lining my pocket or weighing it down, I'm afraid.

 

[Fyooz]

the thread is slowly swinging closer to How It Could Be Done.

forget large-scale manufacturing, and the money changing that goes with it. The people who'd use this rifle will have to build their own.

forget using milsurp ammo. The people who use this rifle roll their own ammo too.

Think of a roller-locked carbine shooting caseless ammunition. The caseless ammunition is made from newsprint paper---cellulose---rolled around an appropriate nail. The paper is chemically treated with nitrates, using a process that can be supplied by a common livestock farm, so a large fraction of the paper is converted to nitrocellulose, the propellant. The rearmost portion of the rolled paper "case" isn't nitrated, doesn't burn when the ammunition is fired, and acts to seal the chamber during firing. It gets flicked away when the roller action unlocks.

The ignition is piezoelectric---that means barbecue grill igniter.

Build it with whatever exotic materials tickle your fancy.

Picture a Sten throwing a supersonic flechette.

The big problem with caseless ammunition is avoiding cook-off. So limit the cyclic rate, or make the carbine semi-auto only.

 

[Harry Paget Flashman]

I wouldn't mind seeing an H&R style single shot 7.62X39 for ~$100.