.40 S&W load W/ W231????

[korben88]

Working up a load for a 180 gr. round nose cast bullet.
The Lyman's manual shows a 175 gr, flat nose start 4.3 max 5.8.

Should I just use this data, or should I go slightly below?




Also loading Berry's 180 gr. rs I've been previously told that Berry's are very similar to speer tmj (so I bought a speer manual) It doesn't list 231 for the 180 gr., but does for the 165 gr. 5.8 start 6.3 max.

Judging by the other powders listed and the difference between 165-180 gr., it seems I should go .3-.5 lower for the 180's.

starts listed:

[U]powder[/U]       [U]165 gr.[/U]  [U]180 gr.[/U]
unique        6.2      6.0
PP            7.0      6.2
bullseye      5.3      4.9
hs-7          9.0      8.3

There is also a HUGE discrepancy between Lyman and Speer manuals:
For the Speer 165 gr. TMJ part#4410 Lyman's lists the start load at 5.2 and the max 5.8 while Speer lists the start at 5.8 and the max at 6.3.
This trend holds true for other powders as well.unique is 5.4-6.0 in Lymans while the speer lists 6.2-7.2

Thanks,
Troy

 

[CZ57]

You can use the Lyman data for the 180 at the start charge level and then work up with caution. In the Lyman Pistol & Revolver III there are two styles of cast lead bullets at 175 grains. They both get the same charge of 231.

As far as I know, the Berry's 180 should also be treated as a cast load as far as data is concerned. NOT as a jacketed bullet like the SPEER.

 

[LiveLife]

You can use load data for a heavier bullet (say using 180 gr load data for 175 gr bullet) but not the other way around.

Below is W231/HP38 load data from Hodgdon's website for 180 gr jacketed bullet:

180 gr Hornady XTP Winchester 231 Diameter .400" OAL 1.125" Start 4.1 gr (797 fps) 23,800 PSI - Max 5.0 gr (947 fps) 32,900 PSI

Berry's recommend you use start-mid range load data for jacketed bullet. For their .401" diameter plated bullets, I would suggest you start at 4.1 gr for light/mild recoil yet accurate loads and work up from there.

I don't have experience with that particular 180 gr. round nose cast bullet, but have loaded Missouri Bullets 18 BHN 180 gr TCFP (.401" diameter) bullets with good results with 4.1-4.3 gr of W231/HP38 at 1.125" OAL that shot well in M&P40 and Glock22/27/Lone Wolf barrels.

 

[korben88]

Thanks for the replies!

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I've been told that the Berry's are very similar to the Speer TMJ's and to use that data for them.


It seems to me that 4.1 gr. Would be a good start point for both bullets and maybe a 5.3 max

 

[LiveLife]

I've been told that the Berry's are very similar to the Speer TMJ's and to use that data for them.

Plated bullet technology has been improving over the years with thicker copper plating to the point where plating separation from bullet core is a distant memory for me now. Years ago, I worried about pushing plated bullets to high-near max load data (9mm and 40S&W) with the fear of rifling cutting through the thin plating and kept my loads modest (yes, copper plating was that thin in years past).

Now days, I don't worry about the plating thickness as most brand name bullets have more than thick enough copper plating. I focus more on the diameter of the plated bullets to tailor my loads. If plated bullets have same diameter as jacketed bullets, I will tend to treat them as jacketed bullets and use jacketed load data. If plated bullets have larger diameter than jacketed bullets, I will tend to use start - mid range jacketed load data.

You do have to check as some manufacturers will vary the diameters of their bullets with some calibers being same as jacketed and some larger.

Let's use 40 caliber as an example (40 caliber jacketed bullets are .400" in diameter):

- Speer TMJ (encased-core full jacket) bullets are .400"
- Rainier plated bullets are .400"
- PowerBond plated bullets are .400"
- X-Treme plated bullets are .400"


- Berry's plated bullets are .401"

Since Berry's 40 caliber bullets are sized larger at .401" diameter, you will have tighter bullet to barrel fit and less hot gas escaping around the bullet as the .400" diameter plated bullets - which results in higher chamber pressure. This allows you to use less powder to generate the same amount of chamber pressure. So I would tend to use start to mid range jacketed load data instead of high to near max range jacketed load data. Berry's also state to keep velocities below 1200 fps. Unless you load magnum loads, most semi-auto calibers (9/40/45) will not exceed that velocity.

Now, you also need to factor that some plated bullets like Rainier come with concave bullet base to help with bumping of the bullet base (obturation) and the amount of bullet base deformation will depend on the softness of lead core used for the plated bullets.

Having said all that, for me with current manufacture plated bullets, I use start charge of jacketed load data and worked up from there. I usually let the accuracy of shot groups be the determining factor in deciding how high to go (mid range or high range of load data) as I consider other factors such as softness of bullet core, bullet diameter and chamber pressure, etc. already factored in the shot groups.

I hope this helped.

 

[CZ57]

You can use load data for a heavier bullet (say using 180 gr load data for 175 gr bullet) but not the other way around.

In this case it's better than using jacketed data for the same weight. The 2 loads from the Lyman Pistol & Revolver III are at 16,000 Cup or less for a start charge. The start charge is 4.3 grains of 231. I'm not saying you shouldn't use 4.1 as a start charge but I wouldn't load too many before you bump them up to 4.3 grains. One of the great things about Lyman manuals is that they furnish pressure data so it is simply not guesswork.

 

[korben88]

Next day bump for more ideas!

 

[LiveLife]

Question .40 S&W load W/ W231????
Working up a load for a 180 gr. round nose cast bullet.
The Lyman's manual shows a 175 gr, flat nose start 4.3 max 5.8.

Should I just use this data, or should I go slightly below?

I know some reloaders will start their test loads at mid range load data and work up from their based on their experience that most start loads are not as accurate as mid-high range load data.

For me, I take the extra time to load my test loads at the start charge and work up from there as I have found some accurate and very usable plinking loads at the start charge.

Since various pistol/barrel/OAL of bullet combinations we shoot often vary from the test fixtures/OAL used to generate the load data, you won't know exactly how each test load performs until you do the range test. Generally, my initial range test results will identify which load range will produce reliable cycling of the slide and produce accurate shot groups for me to fine tune my follow-up range trips.

 

[djboo4you]

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