Conflicting load data

[leadchucker]

Lyman #49, pg 363;
Speer 4410, 40 S&W 165 gr TMJ FN,
Seat Depth 1.120,
Winchester WSP primer,
Winchester case,
4 inch barrel.
W231, Start load 5.2 gr. Max. load 5.8 gr.

Speer #14, pg 918;
Speer 4410 40 S&W 165 gr TMJ FN,
Seat Depth 1.120,
CCI 500 primer,
Speer case,
4 inch barrel.
W231, Start load 5.8 gr. Max. load 6.3 gr.

These loads are mighty close to identical. Okay, the cases and the primers are different. Maybe the test barrel is a bit different. Maybe there are some other variables that are different. But that still seems to be a lot of difference between those charge figures.

So if a reloader only had the Speer manual, he would be using a starting load that is the MAX load in the Lyman manual. I have both manuals, so seeing this, I'm a bit confused.

What starting load would YOU use?

 

[cfullgraf]

So if a reloader only had the Speer manual, he would be using a starting load that is the MAX load in the Lyman manual. I have both manuals, so seeing this, I'm a bit confused.

Different labs, different technicians, different lots of bullets, different lots of powder, different test set ups, different atmospheric conditions, different phases of the moon, different lawyers, etc. etc. etc.

There are lots of variables in play that affect the results between the testing groups and it is not unique to just this set of data.

 

[sellersm]

For what purpose? Just target plinking? If so, I'd start with the lowest and work up. If you're going for PF or some other factor, then that may change things a bit, as you may need to push it a bit further (or even change powders to something a bit slower)...

 

[toiville2feathers]

Thats why you can never have enough reloading manuals. I probably have a dozen on my bench dating back to the late 50's when I started reloading.
The old manuals all use heavier loads than the newer manuals. The powders haven't changed their position on the burn chart from then to now. The weapons used are quite similar. If there was a problem, and there has been over the years, they have corrected them and published the correction in various shooting publications. In my lifetime that has only happened twice that I remember. If your not satisfied, call the manufacturer and ask.
I think the main reason it drops is liability and lawyers. The other thing we don't know is what the temp and environment was when the test was done. Its been my experience on the chronograph that high temps give me more velocity than the same load in the dead of winter. Some powders are more temp sensitive than others.
If it has been published it should be safe. Be sure you adhere to the rule of starting low and working up on your load development projects.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I guess I don't understand the all the hipe about having all these manuals.
I grew up in the 1960s and started reloading our families ammo when I was 12. I was born in 58. We only ever had one manual and so did everyone else. I never remember hearing of people blowing up their guns from their reloads.

We always worked up our loads carefully according to our old Lyman's manuals, but the key phrase here is "worked up our loads".

Whether we were at maximum load or not if we started seeing pressure signs we backed off. Most of the time we found accurate loads before getting to maximum. I realize that back then it was all about feeding our selves and we had to depend on our guns to provide for us. Not the same now I guess.

I still only use a Lyman's manual.

Things have sure changed.

 

[gahunter12]

Lets toss this wrench in the mix:

Hodgdon's web site
165gr Berr FP, 1.125" OAL, W231 4.7gr min, 5.4gr max

165gr Sie JHp, 1.125" OAL, W231 4.8gt min, 5.3gr max

As stated above. You have to look at the test equipment for the differences. For 40s&w Lyman uses a test barrel of .401" where Hodgdon uses a test barrel of .400". I always use multiple sources, but usually settle on the powder company's load data in most cases.

 

[Potatohead]

Lately Ive been trying to find what load will just barely cycle the action and then go up from there. I try to go low so i can find the bottom. (while making sure holes appear in the target of course)

 

[Schwing]

Different labs, different technicians, different lots of bullets, different lots of powder, different test set ups, different atmospheric conditions, different phases of the moon, different lawyers, etc. etc. etc.

I think Lawyers is the key word here.

 

[LiveLife]

I think Lawyers is the key word here.

There are many Kaboom threads where the OP posted the loads used were within published max limits ... I wonder which load data they were using?

Call me overly cautious but keep in mind that all the chamber pressure testings were most likely done using NEW brass and not mixed RANGE BRASS that may have been reloaded several times. Especially with brass that were overly stretched (can you say thinned case walls?) and "fixed" multiple times with push-through dies like Lee FCD/Redding G-Rx, you run the risk of case wall failure/rupture at weakened part of the cases.

Before FCD/G-Rx dies, these overly expanded cases were not reused and reloaders tossed/culled them so other reloaders did not get to use them unknowingly. Now they get "fixed" and become part of the mixed range brass we pick up and/or buy. Also, many match shooters use 9mm Major loads (124 gr bullets at 1450+ fps) beyond SAAMI +P pressures and these cases are left on the range floor after the match because match shooters do not want to reuse them for obvious safety concerns of case wall failure on subsequent reloadings. Guess what happens to those overly expanded cases? They get collected and sold as mixed range brass and we get to reload them unknowingly.

Recently, there have been some threads where reloaders were having difficulty properly resizing their 9mm cases. Perhaps 9mm Major cases shot in looser factory barrels may explain why. Over the years, there have been known issues with various headstamp cases and many reloaders factored culling of these cases as part of their reloading routine. There are many variables to reloading and unfortunately overly expanded/fixed cases are one of them. You can choose to reload without factoring them in but it's simply the new reality of reloading unless you use verified once-fired brass.

So if you are reloading with new brass, you may consider using the higher published load data. If you are using mixed range brass, especially if the cases were work hardened and experience significant bullet setback from case wall spring back, I would suggest you consider using more conservative load data, just in case you are using weakened cases with reduced neck tension.

Many may post recent years' reductions in powder max charges as simply driven by corporate lawyers and older higher max charges should still be used. I like my fingers and hands just the way they are and use more conservative load data whenever I have doubt. But it's your life and your body parts. As always, YMMV

BTW, Hodgdon load data and other powder manufacturers' load data now carry warnings for 40S&W similar to:

This data is intended for use in firearms with barrels that fully support the cartridge in the chamber. Use of this data in firearms that do not fully support the cartridge may result in bulged cases, ruptured cases, case-head separation or other condition that may result in damage to the firearm and/or result in injury or death of the shooter and/or bystanders.

Instruction for Lee Bulge Buster kits that use the FCD carries the following warning - http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/1855.pdf

Do not use the Bulge Buster Kit to reload for the 40 S&W Glock or similar guns with chambers that do not fully support the cartridge due to the intrusion of the feed ramp

How many of the reloaders using the FCD/Bulge Buster kits follow this warning and not repeatedly "fix" their Glocked brass? Many won't.

Many people ask me why I use 40S&W Lone Wolf barrels with tighter chamber issues for my Glocks instead of factory barrels. For above mentioned reasons, I like to have my 40S&W cases supported all the way down the case base and tighter the chamber the better. I use mixed range brass and consider LW barrels cheap insurance. Besides, the spent cases from LW barrels hardly take any effort to resize.

I have a feeling that we haven't seen the last of 40S&W Kaboom threads ...

 

[Potatohead]

Interesting post BDS. Im wondering about some of the range brass I have. Theyre kind of hanging up in my FCD.

 

[LiveLife]

I think FCD/G-Rx dies used to fix an overly expanded case that won't fully resize in regular resizing die once is fine. It's the repeated expansion/push-through resizing that may thin/weaken the case wall that is the concern. Many reloaders use mid-to-high range load data that won't overly bulge the cases and these will fully-resize using regular resizing dies.

For me, typical 40S&W mixed range brass will measure .423"-.424" at the case base and my RCBS carbide resizing die won't resize all the way down. My Lee carbide resizing die will resize the case to .420" all the way down. But even .424" case base brass resized with RCBS resizing die will fully chamber in my Lone Wolf chambers. If cases were overly expanded and the resizing die won't resize the case base to fully chamber in the barrel, use of FCD/G-Rx dies will address this issue. I choose to toss/recycle cases that won't fully chamber after I resize them a second time.

As to OP, the concern I raise is this. The mixed 40S&W range brass that are in circulation we all use to reload probably has a significant amount of these fixed brass in the mix. So when comparing published load data to use for our 40S&W loads, what should we do? I for one would suggest consider using the most conservative load data for your powder work up.

 

[gahunter12]

BDS made some good points. I load 20,000+ .40s&w rounds per year with range pick ups. Some of my cases have been loaded so many times you can't read the head stamp. Most are shot through Gen 3 or 4 Glocks, and definitely run through my Gen3 Glock 35's. I do not use a X die, or bulge buster, but fully inspect each case. I toss any case that has a Glock smiley, or ring above the head where the brass is thinning. I also never load higher than mid range loads. To be honest my loads are .1gr below the min charge for WST. If I were to load near max loads, I would use new brass.