404 Jeffery, but in a Lever Gun?

[js8588]

Quarantine is clearly going on too long because an idea popped into my head this morning and I cannot quite let it go.

Using an existing relatively common parent cartridge case, would it be possible to wildcat your way into replicating the old 404 Jeff in a modern lever gun?

Parameters: A 400 grain 10.72mm (.423) bullet at 2100 FPS our of a 24 inch barrel (yes, I realize the original load was 450 at 2150...a man's gotta know his limitations).

Parent cases for consideration: 450 Marlin, 45-70, 444 Marlin, 500 S&W? (Buffalo Bore manages 360gr at 1900 out of a handgun in their 460 S&W loads...)

Platform: No single shots or box mag fed lever guns (Browning BLR, Winchester 1895, & Henry Long Ranger are out of contention), otherwise, choose your adventure. Obviously this rules out spirepoints, but most of the old safari rounds didn't fall in that category anyway.

This is just a for-fun/because I'm bored academic discussion of "is it possible" (unless @LoonWulf sees this & is feeling froggy).

 

[Jim Watson]

CotW shows a load for .416 Barnes (.416x.45-70 Imp.) that claims a 400 at 2155.

Possibly a better choice would be the .411 Alaskan (.411x348). All the mention I could google of it was reference to a piece by John Kronfield in Handloader magazine. He said you would be better off with a .450 Alaskan.

Either could be fudged from .411 or .416 to .423.

 

[adcoch1]

Isn't that basically a 405 winchester?

 

[adcoch1]

Sorry, in a 1895...

 

[H&Hhunter]

Isn't that basically a 405 winchester?

Exactly and in a modern strong action a .405 can be loaded to some seriously stout numbers.

 

[Trashyshoots]

Ive been using quarantine as an excuse for ideas too, despite being essential.

Nitro express 500 loaded with slippery 50 cal amaxs? Sure. (Implying I can afford a 500ne rifle)
50 bmg "light brush gun" loaded with heavy solids with a YUGE efficient muzzlebrake? Why not?
Making a .224 caliber wildcat to push 80 or 90 gr bullets about 1k fps for 200 yard paper punching? Ive got a contender why not?

 

[adcoch1]

Ive been using quarantine as an excuse for ideas too, despite being essential.

Nitro express 500 loaded with slippery 50 cal amaxs? Sure. (Implying I can afford a 500ne rifle)
50 bmg "light brush gun" loaded with heavy solids with a YUGE efficient muzzlebrake? Why not?
Making a .224 caliber wildcat to push 80 or 90 gr bullets about 1k fps for 200 yard paper punching? Ive got a contender why not?

I have the wildcat bug too being stuck at home so much. For the 224 bullet shooter in a contender, use a 221 fireball die set and use 357 mag brass.

 

[Trashyshoots]

I have the wildcat bug too being stuck at home so much. For the 224 bullet shooter in a contender, use a 221 fireball die set and use 357 mag brass.

Going to read up on this, I have been trying to think of a real small 224 caliber that I could order a real quick twist on for the heavy bullets.

I was thinking of a 22 hornet.

 

[adcoch1]

Going to read up on this, I have been trying to think of a real small 224 caliber that I could order a real quick twist on for the heavy bullets.

I was thinking of a 22 hornet.

The hornet is great, but 221 can be made from 223 or 300 blk brass (221 is the parent brass for 300 whisper, which is the same as 300 blk). Hornet brass is kinda fragile, and may have neck tension issues with that big/heavy of a bullet. Beautiful thing is, no matter which one you pick, if it is boring as a project you can always ream it to 223 or 22-250 and not have wasted any money other than a die set...

If fragile brass doesn't scare you, k hornet or 218 bee are a few more options...

 

[CraigC]

The .405 comes pretty close to duplicating original .450/.400 ballistics, which is really all the .404 and .416's intended. No custom guns or wildcats required. Plus you can use spitzers.

 

[adcoch1]

Made you a dummy for consideration. 357 ran into a 300 blk then 221 fireball. Might need to shorten the dies just a touch, but still cheap way to wildcat. sorry for the thread derail.derail.

 

[js8588]

Made you a dummy for consideration. 357 ran into a 300 blk then 221 fireball. Might need to shorten the dies just a touch, but still cheap way to wildcat.View attachment 913028sorry for the thread derail.derail.

I'd say this kind of derail is well in tune with the spirit of the thread. Derail on!

 

[LoonWulf]

Made you a dummy for consideration. 357 ran into a 300 blk then 221 fireball. Might need to shorten the dies just a touch, but still cheap way to wildcat.View attachment 913028sorry for the thread derail.derail.

isnt that basically a .22 jet, just less tapery?


I agree with goint hot on a .405 being the easiest route.

 

[swg1]

22 Rem Jet with slightly more capacity?

 

[adcoch1]

isnt that basically a .22 jet, just less tapery?


I agree with goint hot on a .405 being the easiest route.

Yup. 22 jet AI (Adam Improved)

 

[Llama Bob]

OP's speculation is 100% possible. The 50-110 case (for the Winchester 1886/71) will give you slightly over 2000 ft/s with 500gr projectiles in a modern (Miroku) action and necked down to .422 would drive a 450gr at roughly 2100 or a 400gr at 2200+ at 46KPSI (same pressure and bolt thrust as 348win) with temp-stable AR-COMP for the powder. All that would be required is to have a reamer made and from that dies and a barrel. McGowen does octagon blanks in big bore calibers.

So all you need is a Miroku M71 and some gunsmithing. The case head on the .348 and .50-110 are the same but you might have to change some feed geometry stuff.

 

[Llama Bob]

I should mention that if you want "safari in a levergun" you don't need to bother necking down to .422. My .50-110 breaks 2000 ft/s with 510gr Cutting Edge monolithic solids and 530gr A-Frames with the nose flattened (probably about 520gr as shot). I'd have no concerns using that as a solid/soft combination for anything.

 

[LoonWulf]

Yup. 22 jet AI (Adam Improved)

i dig it!

that would make a really neat break barrel round

 

[adcoch1]

i dig it!

that would make a really neat break barrel round

I have a set of dies already set up for this in 6mm I bought a while back by accident. Thought I was getting 6x45 dies, but when they arrived I had a set of rcbs "6mm tom turkey" dies. It's a 6mm version of the 221fireball shortened just a few thousanths. I believe It can be chambered for by short chambering a 6x45 reamer. If I can find a cast off 243 barrel someday I am going to try it out...

 

[Goosey]

Parameters: A 400 grain 10.72mm (.423) bullet at 2100 FPS our of a 24 inch barrel (yes, I realize the original load was 450 at 2150...a man's gotta know his limitations).

A Marlin 444 can be modified to feed longer rounds (COL 2.75" vs standard 2.55") and will then send 400+ grain cast at 2100+ fps. The original 404 Jeffery load was also 400 gr, 2125 fps, 28" barrel. The 450 gr at 2150 fps sounds like the Norma "African PH" line.

 

[Jessesky]

The 475 Turnbull pretty closely replicates it (with a slightly wider diameter of course). It can shoot a 400gr bullet at 2150fps. The cartridge was designed around a Winchester 1886. It’s parent case is the .348 Winchester

https://www.chuckhawks.com/470_475_turnbull.htm



Edit: I also almost forgot, there are people who load the 50-110 with smokeless powder in modern 1886 reproductions. The ballistics are a 450 gr bullet moving at 2400fps (which is insane). That’s 458 Lott ballistics. Personally I wouldn’t feel comfortable loading that, but I know multiple who have written about it

 

[CraigC]

If all one wants to do is kill a Cape buffalo or elephant with a levergun, all you really need is the right bullet in a .405, .444 or .45-70.

 

[Trashyshoots]

If all one wants to do is kill a Cape buffalo or elephant with a levergun, all you really need is the right bullet in a .405, .444 or .45-70.

Ive never hunted, but I do have a soft spot for 4570. Even though its painful to shoot because of multiple motorcycle accidents, I still have my henry single shot 4570 just incase I ever get drawn for elk. (Of course I would take my buddies that always hunt to learn how.)

 

[Llama Bob]

The 475 Turnbull pretty closely replicates it (with a slightly wider diameter of course). It can shoot a 400gr bullet at 2150fps. The cartridge was designed around a Winchester 1886. It’s parent case is the .348 Winchester.

The .475 Turnbull is pretty similar. They were extremely cautious in terms of pressure when the SAAMI standardized it - going for 42 KPSI vs 46 KPSI for .348 win at CIP when being less tapered it should be capable of more in the same action. I do wonder if it has anything to do with their business of doing builds on very old actions?

In any case, loaded to .348win pressures it'll get you there.

I did a QL run on the .50-110/404 with a 400gr Weldcore with the nose flattened (I called it 1.2" length and 395gr) and got 2270 ft/s from a 26" at 46KPSI with RL-16. So it looks like the bore reduction to .422 is enough to move to a fast magnum powder rather than service rifle. AR-COMP is a good choice if you don't want to compress though.

 

[Riomouse911]

The .475 Turnbull is a bruiser on both ends of the rifle. I read an article when the author had his .475 TB penetrate over 8 feet of hippo with 450 gr solids. That’s a LOT of oomph from a lever gun.

Edit: I just reread the article..it was a 500 gr Sledgehammer solid that went 9+ feet!


You could probably neck the case down to .423 and have a custom .404 Turnbull made. Like anything; bring an idea, and money, and watch it happen.

Stay safe.