.41 colt new line revolver ammo

[Lech]

I've recently acquired a .41 colt new line revolver, and would like to reload some ammo for this calibre. I have .41 LC dies from Redding and some LC starline cases and .386 hollow base bullets. I figured I won't be able to use that stuff for now (I'll probably end up buying a thunderer in time) because the cases are too long and the bullets too small. The length of the cylinder on this revolver is 1.100" and bore groove diameter seems about .406"-408". So, I will try to trim the cases to .9??" and order some heelbase bullets that will better fit the groove diameter.
My question is: Will I be able to use the Redding reloading die for .41 LC to load Short Colt ammo with .405"-.406" bullet? This is my first attempt at reloading ammo altogether. If anyone has info on reloading this calibre, I would be glad to put it to use! I read this ammo is not very accurate but packs a good punch. Any sources of bullets and load data would be greatly appreciated.

 

[rcmodel]

You have a black powder Colt made before smokeless powder was in widespread use.

1874 - 1879 to be exact.

It was only made for five years, and not many in that cailiber.
.41 Colt is the rarest caliber made in that model.

It was not especially strong to start with in the .41 caliber model.
It is far to rare to risk damage trying to shoot smokeless powder loads in cut-off cases.

I would recommend you retire it, and admire it, before you break it.

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=24207

rc

 

[Snow Dog]

Silly question as I am not too familiar with these oldtimers - is that centerfire or rimfire? It looks similar to the cheap .32 rimfire revolvers from that era.

 

[rcmodel]

That's a very good question!

The Colt New Line was one of the first guns chambered for the .41 Long Rim-Fire!

But it was also later chambered for the .41 Colt center-fire.

rc

 

[Beagle-zebub]

Aren't these revolvers known to be inaccurate as well, owing to their use of an undersize bullet with a hollow base? That's what I was told, at least.

 

[Lech]

I'd love to let it sit in the drawer and collect dust, but I feel it's a good candidate for blackpowder handloads. This revolver is a centerfire, denoted by the C besides the calibre mark. The .386" bullet was made for later .41 LC revolvers and the bore on those was slightly smaller. I haven't got a heelbase bullet to try in the .41 LC Redding dies, I'd like to know if I have to find another seating die to reload these bullets.

 

[NCsmitty]

It's my opinion that a revolver like that should be relegated to collector status and preserved as is, but it's not mine so here's a tidbit of info gleaned from another site. I'm guessing that it shoots the 41 short Colt.

The .41 Long Colt's little brother, the .41 Short Colt, was never very popular. It was mainly intended for cartridge-conversion revolvers and, with its 160-gr bullet propelled by 14 grains FFFg, was not a stellar performer.

Good luck.

NCsmitty

 

[Lech]

That's a good start for some load data, as most articles I've read, just say 'fill them and compress a little'. I just came across a good heelbase page http://www.leverguns.com/articles/heelbullets.htm . From reading it, I gather the LC dies will work on heelbase bullets, the author says that redding dies are his best choice. I guess all I have to do now is obtain some decent bullets and some spg lube. I like his idea for making your own crimper. Low-pro but sounds promising if made from a strong tool, maybe a vise grip version might work well, this way you could regulate the strenth of the crimp. Any other information would be appreciated!

 

[saltydog452]

Whatever you do, will you please post a follow up on this thread?

Thanks,

salty

 

[~z]

If you are interested in loading for a .41, I have a S&W 57. Wanna trade?
~z

 

[Lech]

I will definately post my findings on here. For now I'm just looking for suitable bullets, or moulds and when I find them I will start reloading.
I'm continuously scouring the internet for more info. Here's another good page I have found: http://bobshellsblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/colt-revolvers.html. The data on this page is for LC but he also talks about the Short Colt round on the page. However, I have found another page that concentrated on the SC round: http://www.oldammo.com/august08.htm , it's a good reference and the measurements are from originally made factory ammo.
I have also dug up an old Belding and Mull (1934) reloading handbook and their charts indicate the .41 Short Colt bullet to be of 160grain weight. On their ballistics page they indicate: 160gr bullet, 665 foot seconds of muzzle velocity, 157 foot pounds of energy and penetration of 4 7/8" pine boards. The Long Colt's 200grain bullet flies 725, 235 and 5 boards respectively. On the 'Table of Rate of Twist of Revolvers and Grove Diameters' it only shows 41 Colt: Mfg: Colt, Twist in inches: 16L and Standard Groove Diameter: .402 which is the same as the 38-40 figure just above in the table. I read that Colt made the barrels smaller in their .41 calibre to more closely match the size of the 38-40 target round. The groove diameter on my revolver is a little bigger, I'd say .409" and the bore still has blue on the inside, so I guess it's not shot out that much. Going back to the reloading manual the 'Table of Revolver Charges' indicates 4.3 of Dupont 5 gives 727 velocity and 7 and 9.5 grains of Dupont 80 gives 737 and 953 velocities respectively. There is no load data for the Short cartridge though.
If anyone has one of those old manuals, kindly take a look for Short Colt information. Perhaps an earlier reloading book might have more info on the Short Colt.

 

[Lech]

I'm still on the quest to reload this calibre, but getting closer!
I've learned that Old West Bullet Moulds can make a mould for that calibre, so I've ordered one with 2 different designs a 160 and a 165 gr. bullet. Bernie Rowles of OWM put an awesome package together for me. A Lyman lubrisizer with a .403 sizer, and a custom top punch that can seat primers and is used for sizing the cases in the lubrisizer. After changing the top punch to a cup punch that fits the rim of the case, you seat the bullet with the case upside down. An easy operation, just start the bullet in a slightly belled case and the bullet is sized, seated and lubed in one operation. I just got the package and started experimenting right away. Remember I'm a novice at reloading, it's my first attempt! After I got the lube to pass thru the lubrisizer, the cases were easily sized (.41 LC Starline). After belling the case the bullet was easily seated and lubed using the lubrisizer. The bullet seats nicely and fits pretty snug, but I will try to get a crimping tool to complete the process. I'm making a holder to aid in trimming the LC cases to .~780", once I have the proper lengths I'll attempt some live loads.
I have found some more info on the original dimensions of this cartridge. Here's a link to a post I found: http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47698&sid=7b96a1759132c7e3d63952520ebb6e64 . On the second scan of the book it talks about the original .41 Long Colt round. It was actually shorter than the well known .41LC. That round was developed for use with these New Line revolvers. It used a 130 grain bullet and was made by Winchester. U.M.Co. made a .41 Short Colt Single Action during the same period with a ~160gr bullet that was a little fatter and the case was a shorter .640 vs. .767. I could only speculate when I say that these were probably similar OAL (longer case w/shorter bullet = shorter case w/longer bullet). The bullet diameter differs from .403-.404 on .41 Long Colt to .408-.409 on the .41 Short Colt Single Action. The bullets that I've got are somewhere in between, because they're sized for .403 and are 160gr.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

If you must shoot that wonderful old Derringer I would highly recommend using only black powder loads. GOEX is a good place to start or if you want to use a substitute look into the American Pioneer Powder company. Of course you could use Hodgdon Pyrodex or Triple 7 but those powders might be too harsh for your gun.

As for bullets those old .41 Colts can be most closely loaded to the older standards using a bullet from a Lyman #386177 or Lyman #386178 mold. You might be able to find what you need from Gad Custom Reloading. They have a 185gr hollow base bullets for the .41 Colt available for only $10/100. They also have a 200gr Heal Base Bullets available for $7/100. On that page they are also showing loaded ammo for $40/50 rounds.

Good luck finding what you need to reload for that old beauty...

 

[Lech]

"Silly question as I am not too familiar with these oldtimers - is that centerfire or rimfire? It looks similar to the cheap .32 rimfire revolvers from that era. "

This revolver is a CF. On the New Line revolvers (.32, .38, .41, not sure about others) there is a C between the cylinder and the trigger on the frame that denotes 'centerfire'. See in picture up top. On the RF models, I have noticed a maltese cross cradling the barrel address '+ Colts Pt. ... +', I haven't seen it on the RF models. And it looks like a cheap revolver of the era because so many manufacturers made copies of the Colt revolver. Some of these looked very similar and were mostly .32's and .22 rf.

 

[Lech]

Well, I've finally been able to put together a few rounds of the .41 short colt. I looked up the GOEX website for load data and found that they recommend 15 grains of FFFG for this calibre. I could only fit about 10 grains in my cut down cases. Everything looks good, the lyman lubrisizer does a great job sizing the brass and priming, also seating, sizing and lubing the bullet. Yeah I know it seems like a tool designed just for sizing bullets shouldn't be used to do all that, but it works great. All I have to do is bell the case in another single stage press before the 'seating, sizing and lubing of the bullet' step. I would like to get some sort of a crimping tool because some bullets are pretty loose in the cases. Altogether it took me about a year to source all the stuff and learn how to put this together. I'm going to try a few out tomorrow and will report back on my findings. I don't have a crony to measure speed though. I would like to recover one of the shot bullets to see how well it grips the rifling, any ideas? Once they hit the backstop they're pretty much distorted.

 

[Speedo66]

Try shooting into a garbage can filled with water.

A 5 gal. bucket may be enough, guess you can try that first over soil in case it goes through.

 

[41 Colt]

How did you make out with it Lech?

I'd be curious to know if you could get away with using a 185gr hollow base bullet.

 

[Stainlessbutcher]

Lech, I sent you a PM, but in case you didn't get it, I've got some loaded .41 short CFs here in front of me. I accidentally bought them thinking they were LC.

Butch.

 

[Lech]

Hey 41 Colt, It was OK. The rifling gripped the bullet and I put 5 shots on paper at 10 yards. A hollow base bullet might work just fine, I've got some, but i've only been shooting heel, mainly because they fit the earlier revolvers. Hollow base ones are a little smaller, made for the later models.

 

[41 Colt]

Thanks for the reply Lech, I am looking at one of these as my next gun, still thinking about what I would load to shoot it.

Based on measurements it looks like full length Starline cases would fit the cylinder with a wadcutter type bullet. I have tried the heeled base early on and am not a fan of them.

The groove diameters on my circa 1895 & 1897 Colts in .41 are both .408", and one is near mint so it isn't shot out or worn. Surprisingly my circa 1888 model has a .401" groove diamter, though this is when they were supposed to be larger for the heeled bullets. Lands are around .396" -.398" in all three. This tells me my hollow base I currently shoot may work.

EDIT: I re-read the thread and noticed you were shooting .403" diameter bullets in a bore as large as up to .409". How was accuracy? With the heeled bullets you need to get a size larger than your bore, in your case something near .410" would be better.

 

[Lech]

Here's a pic of a bullet I recovered. Surprisingly undamaged, it came out of a tree! It was burried about a 1/4 inch under the bark in the light part of the wood, and I had to dig it out with a pocket knife.




Judging from the rifling cuts on the side of the bullet, it grips the rifling just fine. I never 'slugged' the bore, but I followed direction from the man who made the mold for this bullet. I was advised to size it to .403, and that's just what I did. The groove dia on this gun (colt newline) is .409 but the part that grips the bullet is just .394 or so (I'm just using a cheap vernier, I dont' have a bore mic). I've measured a few newlines and they're all the same. Short cases took 12grains of goex and the long cases 22 grains of goex FFFG Black Powder. I can't say the accuracy was any good, but it did stay on paper and for a first time attempt I'm happy with it. I never crimped any of the bullets either, and they were just held by the pressure of the case. I put together about 50 shorts and 40 longs, but could only load up 2 cylinders at a time, before I had to clean the bore. I just washed it out with water, dried it and followed with some gun oil. I used javelin lube on the bullets. All the residue came right out with water, and there was no scrubbing necessary! I might try the .386 bullet in time, but I'm happy with the heel. I just bought a few molds off ebay, I got a H&G .41 colt #121 and a LG single cav for a .386 41 colt bullet. So far I've been using a 'old west' bullet mold made by Mr. Rowles. I had 'great success' with these and will continue to size my bullets in the same way. I suppose heel will do better with larger bores, and .386 hollowbase will be better for the latter guns. I'm not so sure about the larger than bore bullet, 41 Colt.. You try it first!

 

[41 Colt]

Looks like it grips the rifling quite well.

I bought a nice nickel plated 1st model in 41 cal. I was thinking taking one of my full sized rounds and cutting the nose of the bullet off to make a wadcutter the length of the case may make a decent round. I'll report my attemps once I have a chance to test fire it.

 

[Lech]

Nice, do you have any pictures of it? I haven't seen a first model in 41 cf yet? Are you planning to use the hollow base bullet in your rounds?

These revolvers are awesome, and there's a nice one up for auction
It has very nice blue on barrel, and no loading gate! That could be a jewel in someone's collection!

I'm going to start a new thread and see who wants to post some pics of their New Lines, New House and New Police revolvers.

 

[Lech]

New Line specimen

Take a look at this thread and post pictures of your revolvers!!

New Line Thread

 

[41 Colt]

I don't have it yet, it probably just shipped out Friday.

http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/colt-new-line-revolver-6.htm

The bolt on the 1st model is just like a SAA, while the 2nd model went with the design later used on the Lightening/Thunderer guns. I have my eye on a 2nd model in blue/CC so I may get a nice pair.

I will play around with my hollow base bullets for now. I like the ease of pan lubing over one by one with the heeled bullets. I just chopped the nose off a couple loose bullets from my Rapine mold and get about 130gr, that may be too light?