.41 mag in saa

[Arthur Morgan]

Hi y'all, for those that may remember I posted awhile back about machining a custom cylinder out of cartech 465 steel for new vaquero 45. While I achieved the results I wanted for it I may or may not have blown it up while pushing exactly how far it'd go. I've been reading up some more and doing more research into my needs as I find my 45 and 357 SAAs inadequate for bears. I read where Colt had made prototype 41 magnums and that someone ( Paco Kelly i believe) had converted a uberti to 41 mag as well and that it held up quite well, but I can't seem to find anyone else who's done it. As far as I can tell if my math is correct the 41 mag should still be in the comfort level for the cylinder dimensions at that pressure, with that being said is there anyone else that has tried it or is there gonna be other problems with it? Or should I just save up for a Uberti callahan in 44 magnum and have it made to my liking? I have enough cartech steel for a couple more cylinders if that changes anything.

 

[ontarget]

I too love the SAA clones. But I have to ask, if you need more than 45 Colt level power why not just go with a Blackhawk or Super Blackhawk?
Is this a project just because? Or just to see if it can be done?
There are a few options out there for SA 41 mags.

 

[Ru4real]

I think you have the information in front of you so let’s see your answers so maybe we can help.

1. How are you measuring pressure when firing a round?

2. When you broke the made cylinder, what was the exact load?
Bullet weight and type, powder type and amount, loaded round overall length

3. What was the minimum cylinder wall thickness for your made cylinder?

My initial suspicion is that even if you can make the cylinder live, top strap stretch might haunt you.

 

[Jim Watson]

While I achieved the results I wanted for it I may or may not have blown it up while pushing exactly how far it'd go.

Is there some doubt?
How far DID you go? Usual proof load is 130% of factory pressure. PRESSURE, not powder charge.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I too love the SAA clones. But I have to ask, if you need more than 45 Colt level power why not just go with a Blackhawk or Super Blackhawk?
Is this a project just because? Or just to see if it can be done?
There are a few options out there for SA 41 mags.

More or less honestly just because I know it can be done, the question is can it be safe, and yes just because. I actually do have a Super Blackhawk but I don't really like it and I'm looking into selling it.

 

[Project355]

10mm

Can do 41 magnum performance, leaves enough cylinder meat for safety. A re-barrel of course. But if you are cylinderizing from scratch fitting a barrel should be easy-peasy.

Ruger cut 45acp stars shorter than rimmed cases use, so keep that in mind when/if you go rimless 10mm.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I think you have the information in front of you so let’s see your answers so maybe we can help.

1. How are you measuring pressure when firing a round?

2. When you broke the made cylinder, what was the exact load?
Bullet weight and type, powder type and amount, loaded round overall length

3. What was the minimum cylinder wall thickness for your made cylinder?

My initial suspicion is that even if you can make the cylinder live, top strap stretch might haunt you.

When I get off work I'll post everything I have on that project, but what I can tell you is that it was a cnc copy of the original cylinder so if any there wasn't much variation. As for loads they were either in a manual or i did the math and double checked with quick load for an estimation.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Is there some doubt?
How far DID you go? Usual proof load is 130% of factory pressure. PRESSURE, not powder charge.

The load that blew it up was running about 46k psi, and it digested quite a few rounds before giving way catastrophically

 

[Arthur Morgan]

10mm

Can do 41 magnum performance, leaves enough cylinder meat for safety. A re-barrel of course. But if you are cylinderizing from scratch fitting a barrel should be easy-peasy.

Ruger cut 45acp stars shorter than rimmed cases use, so keep that in mind when/if you go rimless 10mm.

While I do prefer 10mm to 357 based on caliber alone the 41 magnum is a good deal more powerful from my experience with both, which I'll admit is limited with 10mm, but most full house loads with 10mm aren't putting the same power down as full house 41 as far as I've seen and actually had experience with but 10mm is still pretty unknown to me so I'll have to do more research to verify

 

[StrawHat]

The Colt factory also produced two (2), SAA’s chambered for the 30 Carbine. Let me know when you are working on those cylinders. (Rugers need not apply!)


Kevin

 

[Arthur Morgan]

The Colt factory also produced two (2), SAA’s chambered for the 30 Carbine. Let me know when you are working on those cylinders. (Rugers need not apply!)


Kevin

I'll probably start this weekend all things permitting, just can't beat a saa for feel or looks in my opinion

 

[Project355]

Long experience w/10mm... Actual velocities were less than 100fps less than published .41mag, per bullet weight. Very very close. But, you can go w/210's in a .41, which always helps.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Long experience w/10mm... Actual velocities were less than 100fps less than published .41mag, per bullet weight. Very very close. But, you can go w/210's in a .41, which always helps.

You can also go with 265s or 250s with is part of why I would want the 41 mag. In my opinion and from what research I've done it appears that factory ammo is pretty similar but it's not until handloading and 210+ bullets that the 41 really starts to shine and even hangs with the 44 magnum

 

[Jim Watson]

The load that blew it up was running about 46k psi, and it digested quite a few rounds before giving way catastrophically

That is 128% of SAAMI maximum, so you beat it to death with a steady diet of proof loads.
So you should be OK with standard loads in your next cylinder.

That steel has a pretty elaborate heat treatment, what did you do to yours?

 

[Arthur Morgan]

That is 128% of SAAMI maximum, so you beat it to death with a steady diet of proof loads.
So you should be OK with standard loads in your next cylinder.

That steel has a pretty elaborate heat treatment, what did you do to yours?

When I looked more into the the process when I got the steel I realized I didn't have everything needed to do what I needed so I sented it to a cnc shop I'll have to ask them, and it was nearly double the pressure for what I had in mind

 

[Charlie98]

Dumb question... why don't you just find a takeoff Ruger .41 Mag cylinder?

 

[Jim Watson]

Because he has a NEW Vaquero.
I wonder if rechambering a factory .357 cylinder might do the job. If he could find one.

 

[Charlie98]

Because he has a NEW Vaquero.

I didn't think that pistol could hold up to Magnum pressures...

 

[Ru4real]

You can also go with 265s or 250s with is part of why I would want the 41 mag. In my opinion and from what research I've done it appears that factory ammo is pretty similar but it's not until handloading and 210+ bullets that the 41 really starts to shine and even hangs with the 44 magnum

How do you intend to keep the top strap from stretching using those heavy bullets?

 

[Arthur Morgan]

The New vaquero should handle the pressure seeing as how colt made a few SAA's in 41 magnum and the new vaquero is stronger, but seeing as how I want a SAA in 41 magnum I'd have to look at other examples of it being done such as Paco Kelly's and the original Colts in 41 magnum. As for the top strap stretching, that'd have to be the part I have no idea about. I don't think that it will, from my knowledge on the Colts they never had that problem, but only research will give a definite answer
Edit: I just learned colt also had prototype 44 magnums as well with the new frontier and if those were any good I'd imagine 41 magnum would be golden

 

[Ru4real]

Edit: I just learned colt also had prototype 44 magnums as well with the new frontier and if those were any good I'd imagine 41 magnum would be golden

About 10 years ago I looked at the differences between the SAA and the New Frontier because I was interested in a “Ruger Only Load” type Colt. I learned there are significant top strap differences between the SAA and the New Frontier.

I think if you base your 41 on a New Frontier and not a SAA, and you make a cylinder that can handle the pressure for the New Frontier, you will have one fine 41 Mag Colt able to handle 265 grain bullets.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

About 10 years ago I looked at the differences between the SAA and the New Frontier because I was interested in a “Ruger Only Load” type Colt. I learned there are significant top strap differences between the SAA and the New Frontier.

I think if you base your 41 on a New Frontier and not a SAA, and you make a cylinder that can handle the pressure for the New Frontier, you will have one fine 41 Mag Colt able to handle 265 grain bullets.

I was looking at that during lunch and I concur for practicalities sake since I can't find anything else referring Paco Kelly's Uberti 41 mag conversion and how well it's held up. I might do one of my older ones just for a giggle or two since I don't have a New Nrontier and see what happens with one I don't care about instead of having to worry about it ruining one I love. I just wish the Uberti Callahan .44s were stainless with 7.5in barrels, cause if they were I'd just sell a couple my others and get a pair. My .357 is great for here in Florida, but the one and only time I've came across a bear was outside of the state it took all 5 200gr bullets before it stopped and ran off, and I followed the blood trail for a good while and never found the body.

 

[CraigC]

I see a whole lot of little things wrong with this whole line of thought. Biggest and most obvious, you're going to get WAY more out of a five-shot cylinder in a standard alloy than a six-shot made out of 465. In which case you can load full pressure .44Mag, Ruger only .45Colt or even .480Ruger. IMHO, this is going to yield a lot more performance than anything possible in the .41Mag. Second, cylinder length is a significant limitation. You get more bang for your buck out of bullet weight than velocity and the NV's shorter cylinder is a seriously limitation there. Which is going to be an issue for anything built on the medium sized frame.

The New Frontier does not have any significant strength advantage because the frame is not the limitation. It's the cylinder.

I've discussed a .41Mag on a Colt-type platform with a custom cylinder and a .41Spl was recommended instead. It was suggested the Colt-type lockwork wouldn't be happy with the .41Mag.

The Callahan does not represent a significant increase in strength and it also has a shorter cylinder. It's also not 'that' light at 42oz, 3oz lighter than a large frame 5.5" Bisley Blackhawk.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I see a whole lot of little things wrong with this whole line of thought. Biggest and most obvious, you're going to get WAY more out of a five-shot cylinder in a standard alloy than a six-shot made out of 465. In which case you can load full pressure .44Mag, Ruger only .45Colt or even .480Ruger. IMHO, this is going to yield a lot more performance than anything possible in the .41Mag. Second, cylinder length is a significant limitation. You get more bang for your buck out of bullet weight than velocity and the NV's shorter cylinder is a seriously limitation there. Which is going to be an issue for anything built on the medium sized frame.

The New Frontier does not have any significant strength advantage because the frame is not the limitation. It's the cylinder.

I've discussed a .41Mag on a Colt-type platform with a custom cylinder and a .41Spl was recommended instead. It was suggested the Colt-type lockwork wouldn't be happy with the .41Mag.

The Callahan does not represent a significant increase in strength and it also has a shorter cylinder. It's also not 'that' light at 42oz, 3oz lighter than a large frame 5.5" Bisley Blackhawk.

All very good points, and very true, my thinking was that with a 250gr cast bullet the col is 1.580" , and that would fit a USFA or Uberti cylinder since they're right around 1.625" long, and I'm aware that I'd get much more strength put of a five shot but I've still got enough 465 for a couple cylinders and I think they'd be more than enough for a .41Mag. As for the lockwork i didn't think much of it til now as i should have.

What interests me more though, is the Callahan comment; I know the cylinder is only a tenth smaller than an original Vaquero so there shouldn't be too much of an issue with SAAMI spec .44 magnum loads as far that goes but as for the lockwork goes I was under the impression that Uberti reworked it, beefed it up, and even redesigned some of the lockwork to be much better with the .44 when compared to the older Horseman and Buckhorn models or is that not the case?

 

[CraigC]

You gain effectiveness with bullet weight. Not velocity. The short cylinder of the Callahan precludes much over 300gr. The cylinder is only slightly larger than their SAA. In short, I'd rather have the length for heavier bullets than diameter for more pressure. In other words, I'd rather have a 330gr at 1000fps than a 240gr at 1400fps or a 300gr at 1200fps.