410 for defense use

[Guvnor]

Recently acquired an NEF pardner 410 and trying to decide on what would be the best defense load to use. Yes I know a single shot 410 is a piss poor choice for defensive use, but its my only choice for the time being. Any gun is better than no gun...right?

Has anyone tried either the 2-1/2 in. 3-pellet, or 3 in. 5-pellet buckshot loads? I just ordered some from midway and I will see how they pattern at typical home defense distance once they arrive.

Slugs I assume would have serious overpenetration risk?

 

[earlthegoat2]

The 3" buck would be the ONLY way to go for this setup.

You could always trade around for a 20.

 

[duckman007]

Before you dismiss the .410, you may want to look at the ballistics. A .410 slug at close range has more muzzle energy than a .45 ACP (check the ballistic charts if in doubt). The .45 ACP has proven itself over the years as an effective round, so that kind of power is nothing to sneeze at. Now, with that said, you are about to get blasted from some of the other members for considering anything other than a 12 gauge. Some will even tell you that the .410 is completely anemic. Again, check the ballistic charts and you'll see that the numbers simply don't lie. There have been many deer killed with the .410 over the years, so again, it's not completely anemic. The only real disadvantage that I can see when compared to the 12 gauge for home defense is the fact that the .410 holds fewer projectiles. However, I doubt anyone will really know the difference when hit center mass at close range.

There are also many studies that I've read that claim the .410 has the perfect balance in terms of power, penetration, and recoil when it comes to home defense. I personally wouldn't feel under gunned using one for home defense, especially at the typical ranges involved in home defense.

Now, again, prepare to get blasted. I've noticed that too many people buy into the belief that the 12 gauge is the only shotgun worth using for home defense. Don't get me wrong, the 12 gauge is a wonderful shotgun, but that doesn't mean that anything else is always the wrong answer. If you doubt the power of the .410, take it out and shoot it into some ballistic gel, clay, or whatever. Then ask yourself, would you want to be on the receiving end of such a blast.

Use what you have for now and if you're not comfortable with the .410, get something bigger later. Like you said, it's definitely better than nothing.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Practice enough so you can hit what you shoot at with it under pressure, and learn to reload it quickly by holding a couple of spare shells between the fingers of the support hand. At least that will be less of a problem with the .410 8^).

It'll do, if you will do...

lpl

 

[psyopspec]

RE slugs v buck, the box o' truth guys' highly unscientific testing concluded that both with go through at least 6 interior walls. Hit your target with either, and penetration beyond that isn't likely to have a lot of juice left in the projectile(s).

http://www.brassfetcher.com/410 bore.html

Ballistic gel testing of the .410 000 Buck and 1/5 ounce slug. The buck shot penetrated to about 16 inches (again, not really "overpenetration" if accurately fired on a human target). The slug they used exerted all energy (and broke up) in the first 5". If you were to say that either one "overpenetrated," which you would you pick? The one that stopped at 16" or the one that broke up at 5"?

 

[tactikel]

Duckman is right on, a .410 slug is close to .44 russian or spl. It will easily kill an intruder. It is not ideal, but as an only option it will work. A 12 ga single shot is pretty cheap (check out used-20 or 12 will be a huge improvement).
When single shots were the only option (flintlock, percussion) .58-.76 cal were considered enough gun to bring down an enemy with a single shot. (think 20 -12 ga).

 

[Guvnor]

Thanks for the replies.

Wow! i didnt realize the 000 buckshot had that much penetration. Makes me worry about what sort of collateral damage could result from a stray pellet. Thanks for the link.

Maybe a 410 slug is worth considering after all.

 

[psyopspec]

I'm thinking about making the switch myself for 12 gauge from 000 buck to slugs. I know either could wreck someone's day, but if there's a slight edge to the slug, and the heavily propagated "slugs overpenetrate" thing isn't true (or at least they don't penetrate more than 00 or 000 buck), I might as well go with the slug.

 

[Guvnor]

Overpenetration is a big concern for me. Ill be trying out the 3-pellet buck round to see how it patterns at about 15-20 feet. If all 3 pellets make a tight group in the center of the target, id consider using it. But not if they shoot erractically.

The slug seems to have plenty of energy but do you guys think it will overpenetrate? Ive always been told that slugs have serious penetration...unless the 410 slug is an exception?

 

[AgentAdam]

The .410 slug is lighter and some what more high velocity compared to 12g slugs. A 1/5 ounce .410 slug is only 87.5 grains and at 1500-1830+fps , depending on weight, is going to hit you like a HV 125g .357Mag. The hollow base and soft led will offer good expansion, if not fragmentation, depending on what you hit. I would expect minimal penetration after the first sheet rock wall or was person hit. I would still probably go with a 3" 000 buck in the chamber, if they patterned decent, and a combination of buck and slug on a side saddle shell holder.

 

[chas08]

A faceful, or chestfull of #4, or (my personal favorite) # 6 from a .410 at 20 ft. (a nominal HD range) will surely take the steam out of most folks regardless of their intentions. I have on numerous ocassions used birdshot to demonstrate the destructive power of a shotgun to children and adults alike, on cactus or saplings, including the .410 bore. I don't want to open any arguments over what is best, we all know bigger is better. But three rounds or even one round of # 6 at 20 feet is better than bringing a knife to a gunfight. The best defense is a good offense. Practice with what you have, shoot some watermelons, get good with your gun, and see what works for you.

 

[Guvnor]

I had thought about using #4 or#6 shot to minimize overpenetration risk. I have a box of #6's that I will pattern at 15-20 feet. I know there wouldn't be much spread at those distances especially with the full choke...so id imagine it would hit pretty hard.

 

[FLNT4EVR]

At 15-20ft your pattern will be about the size of a saucer and will make a horrendous wound on soft tissue,but may not put an intruder down.Go with the 3in buckshot loads.If your gun is one of the NEF single shots, additional barrels can be purchased from the factory.Shotgun barrels can be had for under $50.Go to the H&R website and click the customer service heading, then the accessory barrel program.All the shotgun barrels should fit your frame,except the heavy 10 and 12 ga rifled slug barrels.

 

[chas08]

At 15-20ft your pattern will be about the size of a saucer and will make a horrendous wound on soft tissue,but may not put an intruder down.

My wifes stepsister killed an intruder with a load of 7.5's at room distance several years ago and he was DRT. She was aquitted of all charges. I bet he would disagree...If he could.

 

[AgentAdam]

Has any one ever made ,410 in #4 Buck(not shot) w/ .22 cal size buck. I wonder how many would fit.

 

[Guns and more]

I recommended a 20 ga. pump as a S/D weapon for a woman co-worker. Now I regret I did. I got her some 2 3/4" slugs and 3" buckshot. (at the time I couldn't find 2 3/4" buck). That 20ga. kicks as hard as my 12. So she prefers to shoot birdshot in it. Not what I would recommend. I wish I had sold her on a .410 pump.
Yea, I know ammo is rare and expensive, but I think it's a better H/D gun for a woman.

 

[plumberroy]

you are about to get blasted from some of the other members for considering anything other than a 12 gauge. Some will even tell you that the .410 is completely anemic. Again

If you listen to some people on the web, you would be led to believe that a 410 is only good for chipmunks and sparrow and the only if they are under 15 yards I snicker about that every time I dig another 2 1/2" AA #8 out of my shirt pocket to replace the one I just folded up a crow with (5 for 5 this week end) back on topic my H&R 410 puts all 5 pellets from S&B 3" load in a group about the size of my palm at 25 feet
Roy

 

[Dr. Fresh]

Forget the .410, it's way too anemic. The only size you should consider is 4 gauge.



Nah, but really, I like the .410 a lot. I kinda want a .410 bolt gun.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Use a 410 slug with 000 buck to follow up.

 

[psyopspec]

Use a 410 slug with 000 buck to follow up.

Why?

I mean, I keep my load static because of where I live, but if you were to change it, wouldn't you generally want buck shot, then a slug on hand to load and fire if a precision shot was necessary, or for shooting through hard cover? I guess my question is, what's the buck shot going to do that the slug didn't?

 

[Guvnor]

Has any one ever made ,410 in #4 Buck(not shot) w/ .22 cal size buck. I wonder how many would fit.

Actually yes...I recently saw these on the shelf at a gander mountain, and sportsmans guide and cheaper than dirt also sell them. They are a 2-3/4 inch steel shell with five pellets of #4 buck. You would need to have a 3 inch chamber to use them. Apparently they are made in russia for the Saiga 410 semi-auto shotgun.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM876-5.html

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=215168

Seems like a good compromise between power and penetration. Problem is the indoor ranges around me dont allow steel cased ammo so I have no way to test them out if I bought them.

 

[gp911]

I have shot many .410 loads through my NEF and I'm very fond of the 3" 000 buck. Cheap slugs performed weakly, birdshot shot strings were often poor, but that Winchester 5 pellet buck is a consistent thumper. If a .410 single shot is your only solution, that load is the best choice. You'll want to test it yourself to make sure your gun doesn't throw it all over the place, but mine makes a hand-sized pattern at 10 yards with it. Nasty. Penetration is worrisome to some, but if a load won't pass through 2-4 layers of drywall it won't hurt much through a heavy winter coat either. I want that bad guy to stop, period, not get angry. The usual rules apply, i.e. examine your area for where overpenetrating pellets would go, move furniture, etc.

gp911

 

[AgentAdam]

They should make a 3" Buck shot with 6 or 7 .22-.25cal pellets. That would be like getting hit with a whole magazine from a mouse gun.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Just food for thought....

A 12 ga shotgun loaded with reduced recoil tactical shells featuring 8 or 9 00 pellets at 1250 fps (or so) is widely considered to an "ultimate" home defense weapon.

Since the five pellet Winchester 00 .410 ga load has the same velocity, it figures that the smaller shell is at least 5/8 or 5/9 as effective.

Not too shabby....

 

[Girodin]

I have a saiga 410 that I really like. I would reach for one of my 12s first but I would not feel too bad if I only had the little .410. I load it with 3" 00 buck and it groups well at HD distances. I personally don't feel like a round of 5 pellet 00 buck is anything to sneeze at. It also has very very little muzzle rise or recoil and thus follow up shots are very quick with it. 15 round magazines provide ample follow ups as well.

The advice to become proficient in quick reloads should be followed. There is a video of Clint Smith running a single shot very quickly. It takes practice but one can become surprisingly fast.

Do not use bird shot for HD. There are a million threads on it you can search them but it is not adequate. Even more so when you wont have an immediate follow up shot (even if you did I wouldn't even consider using it).

The single shot can be made to work but pump guns are very inexpensive and a much better weapon. Save up $150 and get one.