416 uppers? last chance?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I'm not even sure that I would agree that the HK416 is a higher quality rifle than the SR556. From what I understand, they both use piston systems and cold-hammer forged barrels. Ruger apparently even managed to build their version without raising the height of the upper receiver or changing the receiver pins. I'm not sure what the HK416 offers that the Ruger doesn't at this point.

I'll point out this irrefutable fact once again, there are large numbers of militaries, special forces, government agencies and police around the world using H&K piston driven weapons. Ever think there might be a reason or do you think they have all just been duped?

The only reason the HK416 ever got traction to begin with is because 10.5" direct impingement carbines don't run well, especially if you need to run them unsuppressed and suppressed or with lots of full-auto. As far as large numbers go, even larger numbers of police, special forces, militaries, etc. continue to use regular old AR15s with great success. Were they duped as well?

As for whether the HK is a rip-off, I guess time will tell. I seem to remember everyone being keen to purchase the H&K High Reliability Magazines at $60 a pop because of their supposed superior engineering. Now that TACOM has cancelled H&K's contract and Naval Special Warfare cancelled their contract as well as issuing warnings about the magazines, it looks like a lot of people bought a $60 magazine that starts out nice; but has a usable service life shorter than a mayfly.

Just to throw fuel on the fire though, the HK416 was just selected as the IAR winner for the USMC, beating out the other entries (including Colt, FN, Ultimax, and LWRC). Although from what I understand, the Colt (an old-fashioned direct impingement version no less) was actually the best performer in the trials. From what I understand, the Colt was negatively impacted by several negligent discharges during trials that were facilitated by its open-bolt design. The concern was that while you might be able to train the Automatic Rifleman so that it wasn't a problem, you wouldn't be able to train the people who would be using it after he became a casualty. The Colt also came in about 4lbs heavier than the 416.

One more point on piston systems - how many firearms have been designed around a tubular upper receiver with no frame rails for the bolt carrier group and a gas piston? I can't think of a single design off the top of my head (except for AR conversions). I wonder why that is?
At $3,000 to $,4000 for an upper (or roughly the price of an entire SCAR rifle, plus an additional $300-$1,800 of accessories), I can't see how you can classify the H&K upper as anything but a ripoff unless you think it will have some future collectable value; because from a practical use standpoint, you are not getting your money's worth.

 

[HKrazy]

Just to clarify one thing, the price of a 416 upper is sold a a premium to what it's real price is because it is not sold directly to civilians.

When H&K come out with their USA made, civilian available 5.56 and 7.62 piston driven ARs, the price for the whole rifle is reported to be in the $3,000-$4,000 range.

We live in a free market economy, so obviously people out there are willing to pay the asking price of $4,000 for a 416 upper or they would not be be able to sell them for that price.

Also remember one mans rip-off is another man bargain. I would not spend $5,000 for a piece of Louis Vuitton luggage, but people happily do, every day.

 

[Maverick223]

HKrazy, do you plan to buy one or currently own one? Have you even shot one?

I would not spend $5,000 for a piece of Louis Vuitton luggage, but people happily do, every day.

Always deflecting...what does that have to do with the price of soybeans? I don't know about others, but the more you defend H&K the more that I dislike them for attempting to blatantly rip people off.

 

[Mags]

Just get an american made POF and be done with it. Sheesh! It's better than any HK ever made and POF doesn't hate you or think you suck, they don't even load mags with their rounds in backwards either.

 

[HKrazy]

No, I have never fired a piece of piece of Louis Vuitton luggage.

But I do own two SL8s that use the exact same gas system as the 416 as well as firing thousands of rounds through different G36 variants that also use he same gas system. I also have two Colt AR15s and have fired many rounds through friends registered M16s. I may buy a 416 upper one day or not, its not at the top of my list.

Always deflecting...what does that have to do with the price of soybeans? I don't know about others, but the more you defend H&K the more that I dislike them for attempting to blatantly rip people off.

Just because you don't understand what I am saying, does not mean I'm not making sense. Again my point is what is a rip-off to some, is fine to others

Besides... Get a clue, you have no idea what you are talking about.

How exactly is H&K trying to blatantly rip people off?

The premium is not being charged by H&K it is a black market markup by middlemen who have access to H&K 416s.

Again, if you would prefer a POF go right ahead.

It's better than any HK ever made

I haven't seen any armies or special forces or government agencies using their rifles but it's your choice. Obviously all the experts are wrong and you are right.

This thread is falling of the high road and simply tuning into a lets bash H&K session.

 

[Maverick223]

No, I have never fired a piece of piece of Louis Vuitton luggage.

Still deflecting.

But I do own two SL8s that use the exact same gas system as the 416 as well as firing thousands of rounds through different G36 variants that also use he same gas system. I also have two Colt AR15s and have fired many rounds through friends registered M16s. I may buy a 416 upper one day or not, its not at the top of my list.

So you have no idea how good or bad it is either.

Besides... Get a clue, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Your right...I probably wouldn't even know which direction to insert the cartridges.

This thread is falling of the high road

It tends to do that when you begin to insult people. I am not listening to anymore of your disrespectful, holier than thou attitude.

 

[HKrazy]

Look in the mirror, the only person deflecting is you

I have answered almost all questions put to me,

I'm not asking anybody to take my opinion.

Thats all almost anybody else has done.

Experts the world over frequently choose H&K. That is a fact.

You have chosen to attack me instead of answering a simple and direct question about your unfounded accusation.

How exactly is H&K trying to blatantly rip people off?

 

[KingMedicine]

Doesent HK think we suck and hates us?

Im so confused...

No im not... 4k for a upper... holy crap! They must hate us to charge us that...

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

But I do own two SL8s that use the exact same gas system as the 416 as well as firing thousands of rounds through different G36 variants that also use he same gas system.

Just to clarify, those are not the same gas system as used by the HK416 (unless you were meaning that term in the broadest sense possible - i.e. they are both gas pistons). The SL8 and G36 use an AR180 gas system (also Stoner designed) and utilize a receiver with frame rails for the bolt carrier.

Other rifles that use an AR180-style gas system include:
Armalite AR180
Daewoo K2
Remington ACR
SA80

The gas piston system in an HK416 is substantially different for the following reasons:

1) The oprod for the piston must run through the tiny hole in the upper receiver originally meant for a gas tube and still leave enough clearance not to bind (since the part that originally went there was not a moving part). This tends to make the AR oprods relatively weak in comparison to other gas piston systems. In HK's case, they also made the upper receiver taller to give themselves more room to work with, meaning that while normal AR optic mounts and detachable sights can be made to work with the 416, they are less than ideal.

2. The 416 (like every other gas-piston AR) has no rails in the upper receiver to guide the bolt carrier. This is important because in a gas piston system the force pushing on the bolt carrier is asymmetrical and without rails, the carrier will tilt in accordance with Newton's laws. Typically the way this is solved is by making the ass end of the carrier bigger so that it limits the amount of tilt - of course you have now just decreased the clearance between the upper receiver and the bolt carrier in a rifle where everyone already complains that it is "too tight."

The AR180 system doesn't have either of those issues, so comparing it to the HK416 isn't really an accurate comparison.

Obviously all the experts are wrong and you are right.

You keep using this argument. If we are going to accept this line of reasoning, then we should all be using direct impingement M4s, since that is the overwhelming choice of experts across the world in the military, special forces, and law enforcement arenas. Of course that would ignore important questions like "Why did those experts make that particular choice?" and "Are the factors that drove their decision similar to the factors in my own purchase?" That would also mean looking at the weapon like a tool designed for a specific task.

I think when you look at the HK416 from that perspective, you see a lot of other rifles that do all the things it does for a lot less than $3,000-$4,000 a pop. You keep arguing that it is "What the experts use" and that people pay insane prices for all kinds of other equipment; but you seem less willing to elaborate just what exactly the HK416 does that makes it worth the price difference over those other rifles. Why is that?

 

[Shadow Man]

I would be interested in hearing some first hand accounts of H&K's horrible customer service. Not because I'm trying to throw oil on the fire, but because, never having had any similar instances, I'm curious about the actual scenario. I think a majority of us are rational people, willing to look at all angles of a problem, yet here we are, jumping all over this company, and I haven't heard a single logical reason other than; "Their 416 uppers are $4000." A steep price for just an upper, I'll agree, but as with all new products, time will tell if it is worth it.

As for the rest of the thread: you H&K bashers are more vehmant than the AK bashers...in fact, some of you are one and the same! I'm curious if this hatred stems from the desire to make Eugene Stoner's design (the M16 and variants) the numbr one rifle. I can almost understand that, it's a fine weapon system for low to moderate amounts of shooting. It seems to me, if I recall correctly, the the 416 design stemmed from the system requirements of one of those...erm, HSLD units we're not supposed to know about. They designed the weapon around their parameters, their mission needs. So, it obviously fills a void, and is not a "useless piece of junk."

Having dealt with H&K before, I have never found them rude or discourteous to me, simply brisk and business like...they are a German company, after all. It would be foolish to expect American South-like hospitality from a German company. Understand the culture, and the Germans are fine people, they just take a little getting used to.

And just as a final note; H&K does cater primarily to Military and Police units. And, the 416 and its big brother, the 417 are pretty new on the block, and H&K is still (from what the frauline on the other end of the telephone said) swamped with orders from M&P units. So is it unreasonable for H&K to raise their prices significantly until the rush is over, in order to lessen sales a little? I don't think so. But that's just me. On the other hand, H&K could simply be doing what those car dealers do with little foreign rice burners right after the latest Fast and Furious movie: jack up prices, because people will pay anyway. But I doubt it. Just my $0.02

 

[HKrazy]

There is one major point that many people seem to not understand.

$4,000 is not HK's price for the 416 upper.

H&K technically does not sell the 416 upper to non-military or government agencies due to German laws about exporting military weapons, not because they hate you.

Certain dealers get their hands on them and sell them on the black market at inflated prices.

H&K have no control over that, so how can that be their fault?

H&K does want to sell to the US civilian market and have set up a plant in the US to get around German export Laws, American import laws and try to control their labor cost. It is exactly like the SIG 556 Carbine. SIG had to set up a US plant before they could sell a military style rifle in the US.

Before the US SIG 556 version of the SIG 551 became available, parts kits with destroyed receivers were being sold though unofficial channels for $4,500 and there weren't even any semi auto receivers to build them on.

I don't remember any great moaning and groaning about that.

For the current price of a bootlegged 416 upper or less you will be able to buy a complete HK piston AR rifle once they become available next year.

It will still be one of the most expensive rifles in it's class when compared to rifles from SIG, Colt, FN. Only you can decide whether a piece of merchandise is worth the price to you. The vast majority of people on this forum buy military rifles for fun, not for combat, so, spending top dollar for high end equipment is not what they choose when they can buy something with 85% of the same capability for half the price. A gun that is only taken to the range and back does not need to be as durable or reliable as a full blown combat rifle.

What is better, the FN, the SIG or the HK? I don't know and whether I have shot these guns or not is irrellevent as I'm not saying one gun is better than the other, just that many experts have found the H&K 416 to work well in both tests and in the field. Unlike many others here, I'm not claiming to know more than the experts, I'm just agreeing with them.

As referred to in a post earlier in this thread, in a test conducted by qualified experts, the 416 did well in comparison. Despite my online name, I have the utmost respect for SIG, CZ, Colt and FN. All have a proven track record and a huge professional customer base like HK.

Just to clarify, those are not the same gas system as used by the HK416 (unless you were meaning that term in the broadest sense possible - i.e. they are both gas pistons). The SL8 and G36 use an AR180 gas system (also Stoner designed) and utilize a receiver with frame rails for the bolt carrier.

What I mean is the actual gas pistons are interchangeable and the internal cylinder dimensions are the same. The design has many improvements over anything Eugene Stoner designed forty years ago

You keep using this argument. If we are going to accept this line of reasoning, then we should all be using direct impingement M4s

At the outbreak of WWII there were more Springfield '03 in US military service than Garands. So using your logic the '03 is better than the Garand because more were in service when the Garand first came out. I'm not slamming direct impingement rifles. However, It is a well known fact that they get hot and dirty much easier than a piston design and people are always looking for a way to improve things.

but you seem less willing to elaborate just what exactly the HK416 does that makes it worth the price difference over those other rifles. Why is that?

Because I don't know you and you don't know me, so I don't ask people to take my word or judgment, instead I try to use known facts and references. You yourself referred to a test conducted by experts in which the 416 performed well. I have nothing to add to that.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

What I mean is the actual gas pistons are interchangeable and the internal cylinder dimensions are the same.

Can you point me towards your source for that? I know that H&K relied on the work it had already done with the SA80 and G36 gas piston; but I had not realized what you stated above.

I'm not claiming to know more than the experts, I'm just agreeing with them.

Perhaps you could provide me a link or source to these experts instead of summarizing their views for me? Or were you inferring that because certain elite units used the HK416, they were all pleased with it and felt it worked fine? Because the latter isn't necessarily so.

So using your logic the '03 is better than the Garand because more were in service when the Garand first came out.

On the one hand, I am pleased you have grasped the fallibility in argumentum ad populum. On the other hand, if you think this is my logic, you have failed basic reading comprehension in a way that is going to make it hard for us to have a conversation.

However, It is a well known fact that they get hot and dirty much easier than a piston design and people are always looking for a way to improve things.

Well, I won't drag this into a piston vs. DI argument as there are already plenty of threads on that. I would just once again question whether shoe-horning a gas piston into a space designed for direct impingement is actually going to be an improvement in reliability.

You yourself referred to a test conducted by experts in which the 416 performed well.

Actually, I referred to an open competition for the USMC IAR. The HK416 was downselected (meaning it is the only candidate that will continue testing at this time); but has yet to be put through complete trials or tests.

 

[HKrazy]

Can you point me towards your source for that? I know that H&K relied on the work it had already done with the SA80 and G36 gas piston; but I had not realized what you stated above.

There seems to be quite a few things you have not realized. Here is a HK parts dealer and they list them as the same part:

https://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=47&idcategory=133

The 416, G36 and SL8 all use the same piston.

Perhaps you could provide me a link or source to these experts instead of summarizing their views for me? Or were you inferring that because certain elite units used the HK416, they were all pleased with it and felt it worked fine? Because the latter isn't necessarily so.

I don't think that is necessary because most people know how to use Google, but here is a start:

"The 416 is now considered in many circles to be the best carbine in the world — a weapon that combines the solid handling, accuracy and familiarity of the M4 with the famed dependability of the rugged AK47."

From: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219/

On the one hand, I am pleased you have grasped the fallibility in argumentum ad populum. On the other hand, if you think this is my logic, you have failed basic reading comprehension in a way that is going to make it hard for us to have a conversation.

On the other hand, you need to climb down from your high horse and stop being pompous. There is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension.

Well, I won't drag this into a piston vs. DI argument as there are already plenty of threads on that. I would just once again question whether shoe-horning a gas piston into a space designed for direct impingement is actually going to be an improvement in reliability

Well, H&K original idea was to make a whole new gun, the G36 and XM8. Now I don't want to turn this into a debate on the XM8 vs AR, but it was the Military who felt switching to a whole new gun was to expensive and would require too much training and drove H&K to do the retrofit instead.

I understand you theoretical point about the asymmetrical thrust etc, but can you provide any real world evidence that this has lead to problems?

Actually, I referred to an open competition for the USMC IAR. The HK416 was downselected (meaning it is the only candidate that will continue testing at this time); but has yet to be put through complete trials or tests.

It won out over the other guns. What else is there to know?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

There seems to be quite a few things you have not realized. Here is a HK parts dealer and they list them as the same part

Yes, it is a big world and hard to know everything. Based on your link, the HK416 uses the same piston and piston rings as the SL8/G36. It uses a different oprod though, which isn't surprising given the space limitations.

"The 416 is now considered in many circles to be the best carbine in the world — a weapon that combines the solid handling, accuracy and familiarity of the M4 with the famed dependability of the rugged AK47."

From: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219/

See? This is why I asked. You quoted Matthew Cox, a staff writer for Army Times who has spilled quite a bit of ink praising various H&K products over the year; but he is a long, long way from an expert. Larry Vickers is an expert.

The story you quoted is just rife with examples of stupidity. For example, Self's former Platoon Sergeant has discussed this article first hand over at Lightfighter.com. He stated that the Colt M4s they were using had upwards of 80,000 rounds on them without being rearsenaled and only occasionally being repaired. The reason they had dowel rods duct taped to their handguards is because the rifles were worn out and they already knew this would be an issue from training.

Ballsy guys to be sure; but it speaks less to the problems of the M4 and more to the problems with the way we buy and maintain weapons in military. I guarantee you that the uber-rifle of your choice - AK47, HK416, SCAR, etc. is going to be a big bag of problems after 80,000 rounds with no rebuild. Until we revamp the hosed system used to maintain the weapons, buying new weapons is only going to be a temporary fix at best.

The story then goes on to quote Nasiryah from early in the war (note that although this article was written in 2007, it is reciting stories from five-six years earlier) mentioning M16 failures there while glossing over the fact that practically every weapon in the unit, including SAWs, M2s and other vehicle-mounted weapons also suffered failures.

That kind of reporting doesn't do much to illuminate the problem or actually investigate the issue. It makes great soundbites for selling rifles though.

On the other hand, you need to climb down from your high horse and stop being pompous. There is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension.

Obviously there is, or you would have realized that the example you quoted was me trying to make the same point to you using a different weapon system for the analogy. Or did you mean that you understood that and then made that post anyway?

Well, H&K original idea was to make a whole new gun, the G36 and XM8. Now I don't want to turn this into a debate on the XM8 vs AR, but it was the Military who felt switching to a whole new gun was to expensive and would require too much training and drove H&K to do the retrofit instead.

Actually, H&K was given $100 million dollars to build the XM29; but after that program was a dismal failure by any measure of the word, they tried their best to salvage it by offering the XM8 as an alternative. "Look, its just like the 25mm/5.56mm super electronic barricade defeating rifle you ordered, only minus the 25mm or super electronics." According to your own link, the Army spent another $33 million on the XM8 before cancelling it due to mounting opposition to its acquisition.

The HK416 program actually began before the XM8 program ended, so I think your facts are a little mixed up. Again, according to your own article, the HK416 was requested by Delta, not by big army or the other elements of Special Forces. Since I am not privy to what Delta does, I can't say much about how that process went or what requirements led to the request.

I would guess however that it has something to do with short gas systems, short barrels and occasional suppressor usage. All elements where an HK416 shines; but not necessarily an advantage as barrel lengths start to get to 14.5" and suppressor use is less common.

I understand you theoretical point about the asymmetrical thrust etc, but can you provide any real world evidence that this has lead to problems?

For someone who walks around saying things like "There seems to be quite a few things you have not realized", that is a damn funny question to ask. However, there is nothing theoretical about it. It is factual and it happens to some degree in every gas piston AR. It is just simple physics. That doesn't mean it is always a bad thing though - as long as the wear isn't causing functional issues, it is like any other machine - parts wear and you replace them.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?p=803676 - This link explains how the 416 deals with carrier tilt - by making the ass end of the bolt carrier oversized and thus reducing the amount of clearance between the bolt carrier and upper receiver as I described earlier. It also describes some of the problems other piston designs are experiencing.

Here are some other related links on carrier tilt for your edification;
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/Anti-Carrier-tilt-No-Tilt-t39548.html
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/Calling-Piston-AR-owners-t68551.html
http://xcrforum.com/index.php/topic,3956.0.html
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=449061&page=1
http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=406101

Here are some links on another common gas piston issue - excessive wear in the cam pin recess of the upper receiver:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=382104
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/POF-415-upper-receiver-t67678.html
http://www.defensereview.com/colt-a...-ahc-gas-impingementgas-piston-hybrid-weapon/

It won out over the other guns. What else is there to know?

It didn't win out. H&K has no contract. They just get to go forward in testing and right now they are the only ones who get to do that. However, there are no guarantees they will be accepted or that they will continue to be the only candidate in the test. "Downselect" just means they get to move to the next stage.

 

[HKrazy]

See? This is why I asked. You quoted Matthew Cox, a staff writer for Army Times who has spilled quite a bit of ink praising various H&K products over the year; but he is a long, long way from an expert. Larry Vickers is an expert.

The story I quoted was simply the first one that popped up on Google. I never claimed it was the be all and end all. I encourage anyone who is interested to do their own Google search and read numerous articles and draw their own conclusion.

I have talked with Larry Vickers on several occasions and he is an expert and nice guy. So, lets see what the expert you have chosen has to say.

From Larry's own web site:

"Heckler & Koch: HK416 carbine - The preferred 5.56mm carbine for the most elite special operations soldiers in the world. I have been called the father of the HK416, however my partner from the start was Ernst Mauch, the former managing director of HK. Ernst and I definitely played key roles in the development of the HK416, HK 417 (7.62mm Battle Rifle), HK45 service pistol, and HK45 Compact."

So the expert you endorsed calls it "The preferred 5.56mm carbine for the most elite special operations soldiers in the world."

If said it before, I'll say it again, many top experts think the 416 is a great rifle.

Obviously there is, or you would have realized that the example you quoted was me trying to make the same point to you using a different weapon system for the analogy. Or did you mean that you understood that and then made that post anyway?

When did I ever say that the 416 is the most popular rifle out there? I said many experts agree it is a great rifle. You are twisting what I said into something I did not. I suspect you are doing that because the facts are just not lining up on your side

Actually, H&K was given $100 million dollars to build the XM29; but after that program was a dismal failure by any measure of the word

The XM29 contract went to ATK (Alliant Techsystems) not H&K. H&K were just a sub-contractor for the rifle part. Your lack of knowledge of basic facts does not enhance the credibility of what you are saying. It is blatantly obvious that there are quite a few things you have not realized.

To hide that fact you are now going to throw it back in my face, but anyone reading these posts can see who has their facts straight.

For someone who walks around saying things like "There seems to be quite a few things you have not realized", that is a damn funny question to ask. However, there is nothing theoretical about it. It is factual and it happens to some degree in every gas piston AR. It is just simple physics. That doesn't mean it is always a bad thing though - as long as the wear isn't causing functional issues, it is like any other machine - parts wear and you replace them.

Okay, first you claim it is a major reliability issue and you say now it's no problem. I think you are a bit confused to say the least.

Not only that, all the links you provided talk about how it is a problem on Colt, Ruger and especialy POF guns and talk about how it is not an issue with the 416.

Thanks for making my point that the 416 has better engineering and that the tilt issue had been dealt with in the 416 design and is not a 416 reliability issue.

The harder you try, the deeper a hole you are digging for yourself.

It didn't win out. H&K has no contract.

If they got a contract or not is irrelevant, they won, period.

What exactly is your point other than just arguing with everything I say?

 

[nwilliams]

This is getting intense

Maybe you guys just need to shake hands (figuratively speaking) and agree to disagree.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Military and police contracts?

Well, for anyone who cares to join the 10-8 forum you can read the story of at least one US metropolitan SWAT team that adopted the HK416, and then had some really impressively bad experiences with quality control (or lack thereof) on the weapons HK delivered to them. "Jam-o-matic" sort of headaches.

I know you can find anything on the internet, but bear in mind that there aren't any screen names for posters on that forum -- you have to get your credentials vetted, and you post under your real name.

I've also discussed my personal experience with 416s on the .mil side of the house, and how I simply wasn't impressed. HK may have spent a bunch of time navel-gazing about engineering issues, but they still turned out a weapon that had trouble holding 4 MOA with M855 ammo (at least the ones issued to some of the ODAs in my last unit). When your accuracy is twice as sloppy as a bone-stock M4A1 (and not much better than a bone stock AK) you don't have a lot of bragging rights about super high quality . . .

 

[Maverick223]

Other rifles that use an AR180-style gas system include:
Armalite AR180
Daewoo K2
Remington ACR
SA80

A beautiful operating system. Simple, compact, and utterly reliable; if the brass had waited a bit longer to adopt the AR, I would bet on it ending with a "18" suffix rather than "15". Oh, and BTW, you forgot the M17 in your list...the greatest of them all.

HS, I have a friend in SF, that may or may not have direct or indirect experience with the 416, I will give him a shout and report back later.

NW, mind passing the popcorn.

 

[nyresq]

My agency uses the HK416 with the 11" barrels, unsuppressed. they are ok, not the be all end all ofM4 style rifles.
The triggers are terrible, gritty, inconsistant and heavy. Full auto, semi auto, doesnt matter, the trigger groups suck. The accuracy is bad, I mean like benchrested 4moa bad... The only good thing about them is the rail system is nice and returns to zero. I own a LWRC DEA model. If given the choice, I will take the LWRC any day and twice on saturday. delivered the triger is crisp and consistant, the rail is just as repeatable when removed and replaced, and best of all I can keep all my shots in a 2" circle at 110yards with the lwrc. I dont think the 3" of barrel should make all that much difference.

And FYI, we have 18 of the HK416 rifles in my field office and they all have the same traits.

If HK offered a civilian legal version that was all milspec (not the BS odd location pin MR crap) for the same price as an LWRC, I still wouldn't buy it.
I have thrown a few thousand rounds down the 416 and its just not that great for a company to price itself out of reach of the common civilian (the civi versions are supposed to run in the $3-$4,00 range when released) and be crappy to anyone who isn't a large agency/military customer.

And there is more to a military contract then just the weapon itself. Military contracts require specific delivery deadlines, parts availability and service demands that are included. just because a particular brand was awarded the contract doesnt mean it was necessarily the best weapon tested. it just happened to be the one that met the whole contract requirements the best of those submitted.

 

[HKrazy]

If you have read my posts I am not claiming that the 416 is the geatest rifle ever.

This whole thing got started because posters were saying the 416 is overpriced junk and a rip off.

I have said that is not accurate and made three basic points.

First: HK is not setting the price for the $4,000 416 uppers that are out there. Those are black market prices out of HK's control. H&K does not hate you and is not trying to rip you off.

Second: Enough experts have enough good things to say about the 416 that one can logically conclude it is not junk. Is it the greatest rifle ever? Probably not. Is it perfect? Certainly not.

Third: When the civilian version comes out it will be pricey. Some people will think it is worth the price, many won't. Everyone gets to decide for themselves. If you think it is too expensive don't buy it. Why get all worked up about it?

Also saying that the 416 / G36 / SL8 use the AR-180 / AR-18 gas system is not accurate.

In the AR-180 / AR-18, gas enters the center of the cylinder and is bled of through 4 radial gas vent holes near the back of the cylinder.

The 416 / G36 / SL8 system gas enters from the side of the cylinder and passes through a central hole on the front of the cylinder past an annular nipple that makes the system self regulating, where the AR-180 is fixed.

I personally prefer the SL8 / G36 platform as it is an update of the AR-180 designed from a blank sheet of paper, not a retro-fit. It is not perfect either and, for example, will over heat more easily than other rifles because the plastic receiver does not dissipate heat as well as a metal one. However this only becomes a problem with very high volumes of fire, not in normal use. It is the primary rifle of the German Army, Spanish Armed Forces and many other militaries and government agencies.

NY search warrant= you knock on the door while your partner goes around back and yells "come in"..

Thats funny and sadly true

Experience is something you get right after the point that you needed it most.

reminds me of a saying in the aviation community:

Good Judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgement

I guess I should have used my own good judgement when in my first post I said

I always get flamed every time I say this but here goes again.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

How ironic it is it that right before you ask me:

When did I ever say that the 416 is the most popular rifle out there?

You quote a single person and state:

If said it before, I'll say it again, many top experts think the 416 is a great rifle.

If that isn't argumentum ad populum, then what is? Also, this statement is meaningless, since it doesn't tell us WHY they think it is a great rifle? Is it because they can do over-the-beach without draining the gas tube? A nice feature if you need it; but probably something most people don't want to pay $3,000-$,4,000 per rifle for.

The XM29 contract went to ATK (Alliant Techsystems) not H&K. H&K were just a sub-contractor for the rifle part. Your lack of knowledge of basic facts does not enhance the credibility of what you are saying.

All of those facts come directly from the Matthew Cox article you posted. I guess if they aren't true, we should be wary of the other facts in the article as well, eh?

anyone reading these posts can see who has their facts straight.

Agreed.

Okay, first you claim it is a major reliability issue and you say now it's no problem. I think you are a bit confused to say the least.

Really? Where did I say that? Could you point me to that post?

Not only that, all the links you provided talk about how it is a problem on Colt, Ruger and especialy POF guns and talk about how it is not an issue with the 416.

Carrier tilt happens on ALL piston ARs. This is basic physics. When you push a round railless bolt carrier down a round railess tube from the top of the carrier, the back end is going to want to tilt downwards. If you don't modify the AR15, this will result in battering and wear of the lower receiver extension, the buffer pin retaining pin, the back end of the carrier and the top lugs of the bolt/bottom lugs of the chamber. H&K has solved this by making the back end of the carrier fatter so that it comes in contact with the upper receiver before it can tilt very far. I'd also be curious to see just how the parts I named above have been modified as well. The tradeoff for solving that problem is that the 416 now has less clearance between the upper receiver and bolt carrier group. If debris does get in there, there is less room for it between the bolt carrier (a critical operating part) and the upper receiver. That is what engineering is about - design tradeoffs. In the AR, you are forced to make this kind of choice because it was never designed to have a gas piston operating system. In something like the G36, the bolt carrier rides in frame rails - so that solves the tilt issue and allows greater clearance.

See the problem with pointing out carrier tilt as a basic fact of life in tubular receiver gas piston rifles using no rails for the bolt carrier, is that people automatically assume it is a bad thing. All machines have wear. The question is whether the wear is excessive or affects function. In some cases, carrier tilt will affect function. In others it will not. Most of it depends on how well designed the system was to begin with and not all AR gas piston systems are equal in that regard.

First:... H&K does not hate you and is not trying to rip you off... Third: When the civilian version comes out it will be pricey.

According to you, the civilian version for a complete rifle without accessories will be $3,000 to $4,000 per rifle. According to the link you provided and H&K CEO John Meyer, Jr., the price that H&K will charge the Army for each HK416 (non-neutered) will be "$800 to $1,425 depending on volume and accessories." According to the same link and Colt CEO William Keys, each Colt M4 without accessories costs the Army $800 ($1,300 for the M4 with rail system, BUIS, seven magazines and a sling).

So right away we have a nice barometer for comparison. The Army pays $800 for an M4, civilians pay $1,250 for a Colt LE6920. Clearly, buying in volume gets you a better deal
Now, let's look at the HK416. The Army pays $800 - $1,425 and gets a complete HK416 rifle with the proper pin locations. We pay $3,000 to $4,000 and get a rifle that can only be used on H&K lowers.

Rather than say whether HK hates you and thinks you suck. I'll just let the facts speak for themselves and people can decide on their own whether the perceived advantages of the HK416 and the praise of knowledgable experts like Larry Vickers justify the additional cost for their particular purposes.

 

[Suwannee Tim]

Having a BA in physics, a BS in ME and a BS in EE, the later two from the prestigious Columbia University I am qualified to hold forth on the topic of engineering design. I cannot generally look at two devices and determine which one has "better engineering". I don't think anyone else can either. You might think you can but you can't. I am amused by the stereotype of the German engineers, all hyper-smart and hyper-effective, all with PhDs and calling each other "Her Doktor". German engineering is not better than American engineering. And the Germans do make junk, I cite the Volkswagen Rabbit as an example, I had a German Rabbit that was junk, a buddy had a Rabbit made in Mexico that was a good car. I could make similar comparisons about Siemens versus General Electric. The comparison between Chevrolet and Lamborghini is silly. Personally there is no way I would pay twice as much for an HK upper as a LMT or POF upper. You are buying bragging rights when you buy HK.

 

[John Parker]

I hate to overdo the automotive analogies but maybe H&K are more like Mercedes/BMW

Mercedes and BMW also have excellent and extremely helpful customer service.

 

[Suwannee Tim]

Another argument that just tickles me, that I see here is "Gun X is better because it is purchased by superior agencies, A, B and C." And how do we know that agencies A, B and C are superior? "Because they purchase superior equipment, gun X for example."

 

[HKrazy]

If that isn't argumentum ad populum, then what is? Aslo, this statement is meaningless, since it doesn't tell us WHY they think it is a great rifle? Is it because they can do over-the-beach without draining the gas tube? A nice feature if you need it; but probably something most people don't want to pay $3,000-$,4,000 per rifle for.

You said, according to my logic, based on the fact that there are MORE D/I ARs, they must be superior. I never said there were more 416 out there than D/I ARs. It is you who are making no sense.

As for the second part I think I already said that. To quote myself:

The vast majority of people on this forum buy military rifles for fun, not for combat, so, to some people, spending top dollar for high end equipment is not what they choose when you can buy something with 85% of the same capability for half the price. A gun that is only taken to the range and back does not need to be as durable or reliable as a full blown combat rifle.

And also:

Of course the HK 416 is going to be a higher quality rifle than the sr556 but for the average shooter like me having the best isn't always an option or a necessity. If I were in the military or police and were being issued a weapon at no cost to me then that would be a different story.

Absolutely, I agree with you 100%.

So, other than being argumentative, what is your point?

All of those facts come directly from the Matthew Cox article you posted. I guess if they aren't true, we should be wary of the other facts in the article as well, eh?

Once again argument for the sake of argument only. To quote myself again:

The story I quoted was simply the first one that popped up on Google. I never claimed it was the be all and end all. I encourage anyone who is interested to do their own Google search and read numerous articles and draw their own conclusion.

If you did not know that the 416 uses the same gas piston as the G36 and SL8 and you did not know who was the major contractor for the XM29 and you did not appear to realize that Larry Vickers is one of the designers and proponents for the H&K 416, It really does beg the question, do you know what you are talking about?

Okay, first you claim it is a major reliability issue and you say now it's no problem. I think you are a bit confused to say the least.

Really? Where did I say that. Could you point me to that post?

Gladly. Here you imply that it is some kind of problem:

One more point on piston systems - how many firearms have been designed around a tubular upper receiver with no frame rails for the bolt carrier group and a gas piston? I can't think of a single design off the top of my head (except for AR conversions). I wonder why that is?

Now I know you are confused.

Most of it depends on how well designed the system was to begin with and not all AR gas piston systems are equal in that regard.

Thanks again for making my point and providing the material in a previous post to show that this is an problem with other piston driven ARs and not with the H&K416.

You claim that the way they fixed it is bound to cause problems but I have not seen any evidence of that.

Rather than say whether HK hates you and thinks you suck. I'll just let the facts speak for themselves and people can decide on their own whether the perceived advantages of the HK416 and the praise of knowledgable experts like Larry Vickers justify the additional cost for their particular purposes.

Well, you brought up Larry Vickers, not me and are agreeing with a quote of myself I made earlier in this post. You are definitely confused.

Having a BA in physics, a BS in ME and a BS in EE, the later two from the prestigious Columbia University I am qualified to hold forth on the topic of engineering design. I cannot generally look at two devices and determine which one has "better engineering"

No, but somewhere along the line in all that education they must have taught you one can though empirical testing.

As all I am saying is that he H&K 416 is not a piece of junk, the fact that it has performed well in test, regardless of if it won a contract or not, and that many well known experts have good things to say about it, should at least provide enough evidence to be able to conclude it is not junk.

I am amused by the stereotype of the German engineers, all hyper-smart and hyper-effective, all with PhDs and calling each other "Her Doktor". German engineering is not better than American engineering. And the Germans do make junk

Once agin I'll quote myself:

every now and then they have a turkey or some issues. The H&K UMP machines guns suck and the P30 trigger is a little strange

I do not think H&K are perfect, but I do think peoples over zealous hatred of the company borders on the absurd.

I am not claiming that the 416 is the greatest rifle ever

All I said was the Germans put in more engineering. Anyone who is familiar with German war machinery of WWII knows that does not always make it the best.

Mercedes and BMW also have excellent and extremely helpful customer service.

If you look around you will find people who would disagree.

Also, other than internet rumor, do you have any direct experience with H&K's customer service that you can share with us?

Earlier in this thread Shadow Man posted this, and there have been no replies. His experience mirrors mine.

I would be interested in hearing some first hand accounts of H&K's horrible customer service. Not because I'm trying to throw oil on the fire, but because, never having had any similar instances, I'm curious about the actual scenario. I think a majority of us are rational people, willing to look at all angles of a problem, yet here we are, jumping all over this company, and I haven't heard a single logical reason other than; "Their 416 uppers are $4000." A steep price for just an upper, I'll agree, but as with all new products, time will tell if it is worth it.

As for the rest of the thread: you H&K bashers are more vehmant than the AK bashers...in fact, some of you are one and the same! I'm curious if this hatred stems from the desire to make Eugene Stoner's design (the M16 and variants) the number one rifle. I can almost understand that, it's a fine weapon system for low to moderate amounts of shooting. It seems to me, if I recall correctly, the the 416 design stemmed from the system requirements of one of those...erm, HSLD units we're not supposed to know about. They designed the weapon around their parameters, their mission needs. So, it obviously fills a void, and is not a "useless piece of junk."

Having dealt with H&K before, I have never found them rude or discourteous to me, simply brisk and business like...they are a German company, after all. It would be foolish to expect American South-like hospitality from a German company. Understand the culture, and the Germans are fine people, they just take a little getting used to.