41F Fingerprint Requirement

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41F will require FBI fingerprint cards (FD-258) for all responsible persons listed on a trust and for anyone filing as an individual. With a lot of police departments taking fingerprints electronically, what is the best method for getting these cards? Also, can I get one card and make a bunch of copies for future NFA purchases or do the fingerprints need to be taken within a year of the purchase similar to the photograph requirement unless an application is already on file in which they are good for 2 years?

I am sure that there are some of you who have read up on and know 41F far better than me that might be able to provide some clarity.

It's all pretty stupid as you should be able to be vetted/background checked once and then cleared to buy NFA items at will.
 
Not to be an apologist but I understand the reasoning. Background checks are only good up to the moment the background checks are done. You could get convicted of whatever offenses are not allowed the day after the BG check and you could still buy at will if no updated check was done..
 
Not to be an apologist but I understand the reasoning. Background checks are only good up to the moment the background checks are done. You could get convicted of whatever offenses are not allowed the day after the BG check and you could still buy at will if no updated check was done..
Correct me if I'm wrong (I've still only gotten back Form 1's... no Form 4's), but when you go to actually pick up your new toy, stamp in hand, you still have to fill out the 4473, correct?

They've got the rest of your information on file already. Plus the legislation was written prior to an easy background check process, hence the LEO signoff that you aren't an evil-doer. The NICS check would suffice to flag any new disqualifiers in the modern day and age.

No, I think the goal is to make it hard to get your hands on NFA items. That was the goal from the start, it's the goal today.
 
I've never understood what they really do with fingerprints anyways.

For those who are uninitiated about fingerprint "science," you might think that they're scanning them through an electronic system that can quickly match prints to wanted criminals, like on science fiction police procedurals, like NCIS.*

But that's not reality. The reality of fingerprint science is A) it isn't science, and B) to get a "match," it's a person that physically compares (by eyeballing) a known print against a specific suspect print. One on one comparison. By eyeball.

The ATF or FBI aren't doing that with fingerprint cards. Apparently they have some sort of electronic scanning system that can find "probable" matches electronically, which a human being can then compare by eyeball to see if it's a "real" "match," but that's a huge amount of manpower being used for something that has dubious probative value.

Aaron

* No, really. It isn't science. There has never been a single scientific study that has proven that fingerprints are unique. It's just something everyone "knows" that isn't based in fact. By contrast, there was a famous case a few years back where an attorney in Seattle (who had never left the country) was accused of the Madrid train bombing because his fingerprint "matched" a partial print from the scene. He was exonerated and released when they found an Algerian it also matched. Fingerprints aren't unique, and the techniques they use for finding matches vary widely from one expert to another.
 
Portland attorney, not Seattle. And it's not clear that the fingerprints 'matched' whatever that means. The FBI said they matched, but the Spaniards disagreed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Mayfield

I suspect that fingerprint matching is a lot like DNA matching - with a perfect set of prints, very accurate, but with one smudged partial, pretty iffy. DNA matching has similar problems with small and degraded samples (see 'Inside the Cell' by Erin Murphy.)

The whole NFA process is a little weird. I buy an NFA item with a trust. The ATF does whatever analysis of the trust they do and approves. Then I submit exactly the same trust again (with an electronic copy they could run a checksum to be sure) - and they spend another several months ...doing what? Repeating the same analysis? Heck, if I have multiple items pending, are multiple examiners doing the same analysis (whatever that might be) in parallel? It seems so, since multiple forms submitted the same day can get approved months apart.

And when all is said and done, the seller does the NICS check, which is the only part of the exercise that actually seems like it might stop a crook. They should just treat suppressors (and SBRs) like normal firearms.
 
Yep, Brandon Mayfield. A scary case. I had forgotten what city--I just knew it was the Pacific Northwest. We show a documentary to our Innocence Project students about this case. The FBI examiners called it a match. They were looking at a smudged partial print and the print they had on file for him from an arrest several decades earlier. He was held for two weeks by the FBI as a material witness, without being charged with a crime. And he'd never been to Spain. But hey, he was a convert to Islam after meeting his wife, who was from Egypt. So obviously a terrorist.

His attorney consulted an outside examiner, and Mayfield felt certain their expert would exonerate him. Instead, he also called it a match.

The problem is that there are no standards whatsoever, or scientific studies that back this "science." DNA came to the criminal field by way of medicine and has tons of peer-reviewed research backing it. None of the other so-called forensic disciplines have that. They were all created to catch criminals, and the proof that they work is that people get convicted. No scientific scrutiny. It's all self-fulfilling prophecy. It works because they get convictions and they get convictions because people think it works.

When you study fingerprint analysis scientifically, the flaws become obvious immediately. In one study, fingerprint analysts were given a set of prints that they had already deemed to be a match previously. They weren't told that fact, and 80% of the time, they reached a different conclusion.

This all may seem a little off-topic for the NFA section, but my point is that we've suddenly got a new regulation requiring fingerprints to be submitted for tons more people. And ultimately, there's zero scientific evidence that it is an accurate way of identifying criminals. Instead, we have both anecdotal evidence (Mayfield) that prints are not unique, and scientific evidence (the study mentioned above) that trained analysts can't reliably replicate their results. I'd absolutely prefer not to give the federal government the ammunition they need to wrongfully convict me of crimes I didn't commit.

the seller does the NICS check

Just FYI, though, they don't. Look at box 22 on the 4473. It reads "No NICS check was required because the transfer involved only National Firearms Act firearm(s)." The dealer just checks that box and sticks the 4473 in his files.

Aaron
 
'The dealer just checks that box and sticks the 4473 in his files.'

Huh.

The three dealers I've dealt with say 'back in a minute, gotta call NICS'. That's all theater?



'DNA came to the criminal field by way of medicine and has tons of peer-reviewed research backing it.'

For large, pure, samples. For small, degraded, samples, not so much, if Ms. Murphy is right (and ISTM she likely is). FWIW, was a biology/stats major, so not in completely over my head.
 
Actually, probably not theater. They probably called in a check without realizing they weren't required to.

I agree with you that DNA's reliability is directly correlated with the quality of the sample. But that tends to prove my point: that DNA is the only forensic science worthy of the name, and even then, it's not 100% reliable. If we can have doubts when DNA is involved, what does that say when there's absolutely no peer review or even basic scientific methodology applied to a discipline? I think we tend to agree on this topic.

Aaron
 
Actually, probably not theater. They probably called in a check without realizing they weren't required to.

Aaron

Or they know they aren't required to, and choose to do so on their own accord.

Or they read 9.12 of the NFA handbook and are complying with 9.12.1 (which doesn't cite law):

Section 9.12 Are FFLs/SOTs required to initiate a background check of the transferee under the Brady Law in connection with the transfer of an NFA firearm?
No.
Although 18 U.S.C. § 922(t) requires an FFL to complete a National Instant Criminal Background Checks System (NICS) check of the firearm recipient prior to completing the transfer, subsection 922(t)(3)(B) removes ATF-approved transfers of NFA firearms from the NICS requirement for individuals.

9.12.1 NFA Transfers to other than individuals. Subsequent to the approval of an application requesting to transfer an NFA firearm to, or on behalf of, a partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, the authorized person picking up the firearm on behalf of, a partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation from the FFL must complete the Form 4473 with his/her personal information and undergo a NICS check. See also, question P60 in the ATF FAQs.
 
so its everyone has to have fingerprint cards with every single form 4 and form 1, correct? Not just a one time thing? what the hell are they going to do with 14 copies of 6 peoples fingerprints on every damn trust?
 
It actually would make sense to get subsequent copies of fingerprints, since some studies indicate they change over time. But that gets back to the unreliability of fingerprints.

BTW, while there is science behind DNA, the claims to the uniqueness of combinations of DNA is based on a very small sample of people of similar ethnic makeup from one city.
 
Aaron Baker said:
the seller does the NICS check
Just FYI, though, they don't. Look at box 22 on the 4473. It reads "No NICS check was required because the transfer involved only National Firearms Act firearm(s)." The dealer just checks that box and sticks the 4473 in his files.
The ATF requires a NICS check on any NFA item transferred to a trust. I've been through 3 ATF audits, and that's been a constant through each one.

I don't think they require a NICS check for items transferred to an individual, but I don't know for sure since I've never personally seen or handled a sign-off in my four years of selling NFA items; almost nobody in this area can get a sign-off.
 
NICS checks are not required for NFA items by law for anyone. (as I read it). ATF requires them for transfers to trusts.
18USC922(t) is the law that requires the NICS check per the Brady act.
922(t)(1) states that it is required
922(t)(2) discusses the method
922(t)(3) lists the exceptions
922(t)(3) "Paragraph (1) shall not apply to a firearm transfer between a licensee and another person if—"
922(t)(3)(B)"the Attorney General has approved the transfer under section 5812 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986; "

The ATF not long ago took the position that trusts were not "persons" referred to in (3), so they could require background checks for transfers to trusts. Immediately people with trusts started sending in Form 1's to make machine guns, since only persons were prohibited from doing so. Hilarity ensued.

IMHO, requiring the background checks was ATFs idea of a simple solution to 41P. Didn't work out that way, though.
 
To the extent I had any confusion about this, it's probably because even though I am using a trust, when I picked up my suppressors from my dealer, he didn't actually call in a NICS check...

But he did fill out the 4473 with my information, and I have a Kentucky CCW, which means regardless of whether he checked the "NFA" box or not, he didn't actually have to call in a NICS check on me.

Aaron
 
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