4227 in 30 carbine data

[Ironicaintit]

Howdy all,

Ive been loading up 30 carbine, and I ran myself out of all of my H110, and my fun trampling accountant says Im grounded for the time being.

Of the powders I have left, only IMR4227 is appropriate for the caliber....but for the life of me, I can not find any of my notes on loads of this type Ive had before, nor any complete cartridges with this powder, to dissect.

Would y'all be so kind, and share your recipes for
30 carbine, with a 110 gr jacketed soft point, and IMR4227?

Im shooting for 1950FPS if at all possible, and all the loads in my books seem a bit anemic (my pet 1950fps H110 load of 14.6 is at least .6 gr over max of published data, too).
This is for a general plinking, self defense, and critter control.

Thanks for your help!
Im not scared of hot loads, so dont be shy...i will still work up to it.
If you think this is a foolhardy, idiotic quest...well, you can share that, too!

 

[ewlyon]

The only load I see listed for the 110 grain jacketed with IMR 4227 is 13gr start for 1800fps and 14.5gr MAX for 2000 fps at 1.680 oal. I havent tried it with the 110 but with the hornady short jacket 100gr bullets I have gotten good accuracy with IMR 4227. Seems to like the compressed loads and shoots reliably but pretty dirty.

 

[jski]

Since H110 appears to be virtually unavailable, I'm currently looking at getting IMR4227 for reloading my .30 Carbine Blackhawk. The Hodgdon website has great data on it. I'm currently working with 115 gr. hard cast, GC bullets.

One question: On the Hodgdon website, I'm assuming IMR4227 and H4227 are the same powder?

 

[Reloadron]

30 Carbine
Source: Sierra 50 Anniversary Edition
Powder: IMR 4227
Bullets: 110 grain RN & 110 grain FMJ (both COAL = 1.680")
Start: 13.2 grains
Maximum: 15.4 grains

One question: On the Hodgdon website, I'm assuming IMR4227 and H4227 are the same powder?

They are not the same and should not be treated as the same. While very close they are not the same so the load data is not really interchangeable.

The Lyman 49th Edition does have some cast bullet data using IMR 4227 in 30 Carbine.

Ron

 

[buck460XVR]

One question: On the Hodgdon website, I'm assuming IMR4227 and H4227 are the same powder?

They are not the same and should not be treated as the same. While very close they are not the same so the load data is not really interchangeable.

The Lyman 49th Edition does have some cast bullet data using IMR 4227 in 30 Carbine.

Ron

If you look on Hodgdon's website for data on .44 mag rifle, you will see H4227 and IMR4227 loads listed. Both are shown with the exact same powder charges, producing the exact same velocities and the exact same pressures. This tells me that Hodgdon knows they are the same.

Several years back I contacted Hodgdon about H4227 and IMR4227 and got the same answer as Ron gave. A few years late when contacted and asked the same thing, Hodgdon told me that the old IMR4227 was discontinued, and the old H4227 renamed IMR4227 and H4227 was dropped from the product line. IOWs, newer production IMR4227 can be loaded with H4227 data.

 

[Reloadron]

If you look on Hodgdon's website for data on .44 mag rifle, you will see H4227 and IMR4227 loads listed. Both are shown with the exact same powder charges, producing the exact same velocities and the exact same pressures. This tells me that Hodgdon knows they are the same.

Several years back I contacted Hodgdon about H4227 and IMR4227 and got the same answer as Ron gave. A few years late when contacted and asked the same thing, Hodgdon told me that the old IMR4227 was discontinued, and the old H4227 renamed IMR4227 and H4227 was dropped from the product line. IOWs, newer production IMR4227 can be loaded with H4227 data.

My reasoning for giving the answer I do is I don't know what people have, I have several 1 Lb cans of IMR 4227 siting here that are maybe pushing 20 years old, never opened and I would not hesitate to sniff test and use. Being a creature of habit I use a "canned" answer with powders. Now if people wish to contact Hodgdon as you have done and share the data I am great with it. That and yes, if we look at the powders on the burn rate charts they show side by side which is a close to same as one can get. I just have not contacted Hodgdon so was reluctant to say they were the same.

I wonder when they quit using the metallic 1 Lb cans.

Thanks buck460XVR for the clarification, much appreciated.

Ron

 

[Ironicaintit]

Thanks fellas, im thinkn maybe i should rephrase the question;

Is 1950 FPS with a 110 grain bullet achievable with (old, but good'n'stable) IMR 4227, at pressures an old GI carbine is rated for?

 

[Reloadron]

Thanks fellas, im thinkn maybe i should rephrase the question;

Is 1950 FPS with a 110 grain bullet achievable with (old, but good'n'stable) IMR 4227, at pressures an old GI carbine is rated for?

I doubt it. The max load I posted of 15.4 grains will get you about 1900 FPS. Matter of fact I don't know of any load for a M1 Carbine (original GI) that will get you above 1900 FPS. I am not saying it can't be done only that I don't know of a load and I would never load that hot for the little war baby.

Ron

 

[1KPerDay]

Probably won't help but here were my initial results with trying to work up 4227 and 110gr SP.
13.2, 13.9, 14.9. All weak rear ejection to forehead. 14.9 similar recoil to Aguila ball. Brass seems okay but dirty. Improper seal? Smells a bit but not unpleasant. Groups not great but none of mine are.

Don't have a chrony, sorry.

 

[Ironicaintit]

I loaded some up at 14.8 and 15. I was going to load some at 15.2 as well, but no, thats not going to happen! Case is just too small, and 15 grains was pretty compressed, loading out to max OAL. No danger of double charging these!

Ill run these out as soon as I can and we will see what they do.

 

[Ironicaintit]

I doubt it. The max load I posted of 15.4 grains will get you about 1900 FPS. Matter of fact I don't know of any load for a M1 Carbine (original GI) that will get you above 1900 FPS. I am not saying it can't be done only that I don't know of a load and I would never load that hot for the little war baby.

My 40s-50s GI ammo, and my H110 loads, run in the mid to high 1900s... in my gun anyways. (I think the thinner air at 8000ft helps)
Some 70s vintage w-w rounds I have run consistently over 2000fps.

I use aguila mostly for plinking duty, and I dont run it with my hot ones a whole helluvalot.

 

[medalguy]

I load IMR4227 at 15.0 gr to function my M2 carbine reliably. Never had any issues with that load.

 

[jski]

Is IMR4227 really dirty? Is there a reason to prefer H110 v. IMR4227? What?

As for as "hot" loads are concerned, I'm reloading for the .30 Carbine Blackhawk.

 

[gatorwade]

IMR 4227 is different from H110, based on just load testing a pound of each. 4227 gives 1594 fps at 12.7 grains, max COAL. I tested up to 13.5 gr. which gave 1669 fps. But I was loading for accuracy and the sweet spot is somewhere in the 12.7 to 13.0 range. Above that accuracy falls off, at least in my trusty Underwood.
With H110 the accuracy sweet spot was at higher velocity with 14.7 to15.0 grains, but I didn't chrono my H110 loads, so that is an assumption based on load charts.
So far, 4227 is delivering tighter groups. But both powders shoot best for accuracy at different velocities. I don't know what to think about that.
If I was primarily looking for 1900 fps, it would be H110 over 4227.

 

[hdwhit]

IMR4227 and H4227

The only powder I have ever used in my .30 M1 Carbine loads has been IMR 4227 with either a 100 Grain "Plinker" bullet or the ubiquitous 110 Grain soft point.

As to burning rates, the Hodgdon Manual, 25th Edition (1987) has a list of comparative burn rates in which H4227 and IMR4227 are shown as tied. However, a more detailed burn rate chart in the Vihta Vuori Reloading Guide, 12th Edition, shows IMR 4227 being noticeably faster than H4227. The chart also shows noticeable differences between IMR 4198 and H4198.

Always follow the published load data, but don't assume that just because a particular cartridge may reach the same maximum load for both powders that they are the interchangeable.

 

[maxxhavoc]

I run 13.8 of IMR4227 under Xtreme 110gr Plated for my go-to "plinker" round.