43 Spanish

[paul harm]

A month or so ago I bought a Remington Rolling Block in .43 Spanish. It's a Remington I always wanted. A couple of repairs on the forearm but had a very nice bore and blueing. Track of the Wolf had cases at 3.50 each , some slugs, and all the reloading equipment I needed. It's a BP cartridge, and holds around 70 to 75grs with a 385gr bullet. I go over to the club tomorrow for shotgun [ with my 1800s Remington Damascus SxSs ] and a gunsmith friend who knows metallic reloading will help me load some ammo. Seeing the cost of cases, I only bought ten, so I bought a Lee hand press and priming tool. That way if I want to shoot more than ten shells I can reload at the range. I'm going to take some 3F and H-4198 smokeless. We'll see how it goes. Can't wait to see what kind of groups I can get.

 

[Curator]

Paul,

Welcome to the .43 Spanish club. You should check out Buffalo Arms' website for .43 Spanish brass. I see they are out of stock currently, but check back often. BA makes .43 Spanish brass from 348 Winchester cases by swaging the case head and rim to match the original .43 Spanish case. I have 50 of them that I have been shooting for more than 20 years without a loss. More expensive Bertram brass cases were splitting after 5 or 6 reloads.

If you research the various gun forums on the subject of .43 Spanish reloading you will get a lot of information, some of which is actually useful and correct. To begin with you need to slug the bore. Specifications call for .439 groove diameter, but I have encountered anything from .435 to .447. Apparently Remington in fulfilling their South American contracts used some barrels that were originally made for their .44-77 cartridge with the larger .445 groove diameter. About half of the Remington and Oviedo rolling blocks slug .439". Some of these were also made in the later .43 Reformado cartridge that was slightly different and was made purposely with a 5 groove barrel that had .451 to .454 groove diameter.

The Lyman .439 bullet made for the.43 Spanish is a good copy of the original military bullet except for its very tiny lube grooves. These are adequate for smokeless powder loads but not for black powder. I do not resize my brass since it is shot in only this one rifle. Brass lasts almost indefinitely if you don't work it by sizing and expanding. Some rollers have a bit of play in their breech lock up and will need to have their cases "indexed" to rechamber after firing. These little idiosyncrasies cause many shooters to give up on the .43 Spanish rollers, maybe re-barreling them in something more mundane like .45-70, or selling them and getting an AR15. Once you get them shooting, you will be amazed at what they can do when fed the right ammo.

 

[paul harm]

I bought the cases and bullets from a guy my friend used when he was sighting in a British double rifle. They were 3.50 a case, about 11 or 12 cents more than ToW. I had to sand down the head thickness - they were just a bit too thick to go in the Lee case holder. I also had to use their " case neck expander ". What a joke. It's suppose to used in a pistol die - no way to hold it for me except in my vice. The part of the neck expander in the depriming die doesn't open the neck up enough. Yesterday I tried 4 shells with 25.6grs of 4198. One got out of the bore, the others stuck in it. They came out with a little pressure, all looked like the rifling engraved them. I don't know a lot about rifle reloading. I just picked up some Trail Boss. The brass appears as it would hold about 70grs. Does that sound like a good load ? Who is BA ? Thanks for any help.

 

[Risky buisness]

If you want cases and die set and maybe a bullet mold send me a message.

 

[Jim Watson]

I just picked up some Trail Boss. The brass appears as it would hold about 70grs. Does that sound like a good load?.

NO! STOP!
Trail Boss is not a black powder substitute,
it has a pistol burn rate and using it in a black powder rifle takes a lot of care.
I don't have anything but Cartridges of the World showing smokeless loads for .43 and I am not too sure about that.

 

[Curator]

[QUOTE=" I just picked up some Trail Boss. The brass appears as it would hold about 70grs. Does that sound like a good load ? Who is BA ? Thanks for any help.[/QUOTE]
Paul,

Do not use Trail Boss until you have found a bullet that works in your gun. Re-read my original post. There are a lot of different guns masquerading as ".43 Spanish" out there. Start with a bore slug. maybe even a chamber cast before trying anything. Trail Boss is very fast burning and safe only with 70% or less case volume under a cast bullet.

"BA" is Buffalo Arms. Take a look at their website. Loading the .43 Spanish cartridge is not rocket science but does require some knowledge in metallic cartridge reloading. 25+ grains of IMR4198 is near maximum load for this cartridge. The fact that some bullets did not exit the barrel leads me to be suspicious of the actual bore condition/diameter.

 

[paul harm]

I did push a 440 round ball through the bore - came out 439. The powder chart that came with the Lee dies using IMR-4198 had a starting load of 25.2 and a max at 30.4 so I don't think I had too much powder. Both the powder and the primers were given to me. That said, some of the guys sitting a round the BS table up in shotgun suggested bad powder, not enough powder, and or bad primers. It was the same powder I used to load some 40 cal cartridges for my 10ga 1882 Remington 10ga with a 40 cal barrel rifle liner in it. That load is a whole different story, but it worked with a 425gr slug and 25grs of 4198. Back to the 43. I looked at the powder that fell out of the barrel on the cement and it looked dark and unburnt - could still see its shape. Maybe a half of the load was there. There was no recoil and the load sounded very weak. I didn't crimp the bullet in the case. It slides in with very little pressure with a Lee hand press. I left the first one sticking out the case a little extra and when it felt like it was touching the bore [ or forcing cone ] I backed it out and saw a tiny shiny spot on the nose so I turned in the seating plunger. I felt comfortable with it's length and it was not quite centered on the first grove back from the nose. I figured, right or wrong, I was good to go. I think my gunsmith friend was guessing right, I need more powder. On the Hodgdons web site for 45/70 they list a starting point at 31grs and max at 33. Wouldn't the 43 Spanish be pretty close to a 45/70 ? I didn't see 43 Spanish over there. I've loaded shotgun for 40 years, and at one time pistol and rifle for the wife and me when shooting cowboy - but that was just 45 LC on a Dillion so I never got into it much. Thanks to everyone for any help.

 

[paul harm]

Well, finally got to shoot it and this time it went bang. I think back and wonder why I just didn't do what I did with the 40 cal liner in my 1882 Remington 10ga hammer gun. Once I got all 10 to go off, the cases were fire formed to what I want and the bullets slid in the cases. The only thing I use from the loading dies are the rod to deprime the case and the one to crimp the bullet. The deprime rods part that opens the case back up to 439 only opens it to 435 and I can't get the bullet to start if I put the case in the resizing die. Another friend suggested I call Lee and ask them for a different rod. Think I will on Monday. My vision is so poor I can't see the front and back sight - too blurry but still got a 2" group at 25 yards. Gonna work on that part. Maybe a piece of elect tape with a pin hole in it stuck on my glasses.

 

[ThomasT]

Lee makes a universal depriming die that will not size your cases. All it does is knock out the spent primer. They also make a case flaring die that does but flair the mouth for easy seating of lead bullets.

 

[dh1633pm]

Excellent work with your roller. You could always mount a rail on yours like I did on mine. I could see the reply's now if you did such sacrilege.



In the picture I was mocking up the forearm. I had the rail custom made. Mine is a No 5. This was made out of a trashed No 5. I have another No 5 in much much better shape that is all original. Always on the lookout for another roller.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Eeek and egad, what have you done!! Just woofing ya! I guess you expected it. Hey Paul, have you tried black powder in the .43 yet? I tried 4895 in my roller and did not care for it. I got better results with black or Pyrodex. Recoil was different, less sharp than with smokeless.

 

[dh1633pm]

A scoped roller in 45 colt is the cat's meow. I really want and will obtain another roller that is older than my two number 5's.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Mine was in 43 Egyptian, it was pretty thrashed. I rebarreled it with a green mountain barrel and restocked it in Mesquite. I really enjoy playing with it. I have shot 250 grain pistol bullets as well as the 405 gr mortar shells. It seems to shoot either one well.

 

[paul harm]

Played around a bit more, got more opinions on the reloading. The Lee dies are made for jacketed bullets. My cast bullets didn't come with a boat tail so they are a bit trouble to get started. I got everything working, except my being able to focus on the sights without seeing a double back sight and a blur for a front sight. I put a hot needle through a piece of electrical tape and stuck it on some old glasses. Seems to clear the sights up. The one friend had a book on the 45/70 and in it the author claimed 15 to 17 grains of Unique with a 300 to 400 grain bullet works great. We'll see, and some 3F 70 grain BP loads.

 

[whughett]

As to bullet starting, a slight flare is placed on the mouth of the cartridge case by the expanding die, just enough to allow a bullet to start with out shaving lead. Dies for progressive presses will incorporate this as the powder drop tube.

 

[paul harm]

The expanding die is only .435 and the bullets .439.

 

[Jim Watson]

Buffalo Arms will make you an expander plug any two diameters you want, like a Lyman M die.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

Mike Venturino's book "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West:" Includes data for 43 Spanish and 44-77. These are nearly identical. His are black powder loads. Venturino's book give recipes and directions on building up BP loads. This book has helped me on projects. My suggestion is to figure what the bore diameter really is. Right, the grove diameters can be all over the map. Remington did not have a monopoly on generous groove diameters. Also, I suggest studying up on bullet alloys used in BP cartridges. I get my gear from Buffalo Arms. It's a good company. You may find more of what you need with Buffalo Arms. I learned in my experience that if the bullet goes sideways through the target at fifty yards something is not right. Your are getting into a highly addictive pastime. You are fairly warned

 

[whughett]

The expanding die is only .435 and the bullets .439.

The expander die can still be adjusted down to flare the case mouth, which eases the bullet into the case mouth as the bullet it self expands the brass . I have zero experience with this round but have started skipping the sizing of several bullet calibers, IE, 44 caliber is nominally .429 but bullets drop out of the mold at .431. Tumble lubed with liquid Alox and loaded in 44 special cases they chamber and fire just fine. 45 caliber drop out of the mold at .453 to .454. All these rounds headspace on their rims so if they chamber they will fire, all else be equal, powder charge, safely.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

If you want to use back powder you may want to try SPG. I have applied SPG by hand. I am afraid the bullets from a 44 Special case will rattle down a long chamber and give you less than satisfactory accuracy. Hope it turns out better. Why I suggested finding the exact groove diameter was my last Trapdoor was .462. That the way it was in the day. Also, if it's three lands and groves the conventional way of measuring won't do.

 

[whughett]

Mowgli Terry, that's an example of how slightly oversized bullets can be loaded into a case, I don't have a Spanish and the 44 is fired in a model 29 Smith and Wesson, 44 Mag. As to the black powder I basically limit that to the cap guns and use Trail Boss in the conversion cylinders or Colt single action Armies.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

OK, missed that. I need to expand the neck of handgun brass with lead bullets. Otherwise, the bullet.and/or the case is damaged. Despite missing important information that balance of my post applies. You probably discovered that thicker modern cases sometimes don't do so good with BP. I'll make up for your black powder pistol use. It's 90grs under a 500gr. bullet in a 45-110. Sends a cloud of smoke half way down a hundred yard range.