I've only used GOEX Cannon, For the large cannon, FF for the smaller cannons and mortars and FFFF to make a cannon make a loud noise without a projectile. Today I received my first BP pistol. Flintlock .50! Advice from some of you is to load with 3F and 4F to fire. Well they only had Hodgdon Pyrodex equivalent to FFFG. HHhhmmmm... What's that mean? Yeah, burn rate and stuff, but there are so many. So I started looking around. There are all sorts of BP's by all sorts of manufactures. I've reloaded for years in the smokeless arenas. There it's pistol -v- rifle. Then calibre and grain of bullet dictates which powder for the ballistics your wanting to achieve, basically. But it makes sense. I don't see corresponding data for BP's. Please help me make sense of the BP world. Thanks
When it comes to BP, what's the difference?
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BCRider
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Both Pyrodex and 777 are black powder substitutes. And I understand that there are at least one or two others. These deliver roughly the same burn rate and pressure as proper black powder when used to an equivalent volume.
Well OK, 777 is slightly more powerful so it needs the VOLUME loads to be reduced by 15% or something that they mention on the web site notes.
But these powders don't always ignite the same way as proper FFFg black powder. With a percussion cap it's not a big deal. The caps are hot enough and generate their own pressure wave down through the nipple to make sure the heat and sparks are conducted to the powder well.
But a flintlock is an open pan and relies on the puff through the touch hole to conduct some flame and burning powder. So the ignition source is no where near as strong as a cap burst coming down through a nipple.
I've found that getting ignition through that touch hole on my flintlock rifles is bad enough. I would not want the powder making it any harder.
Now I suppose one could drop a few grains of FFFFg down the muzzle before depositing the Pyrodex. And the amount of FFFFg would simply be deducted from the Pyrodex portion. But I'd want to be fairly desperate to try this much fooling around.
So says the guy that has 8 lbs of proper Goex FFFg sitting in the BP magazine..... So clearly I'm not that desperate....
Well OK, 777 is slightly more powerful so it needs the VOLUME loads to be reduced by 15% or something that they mention on the web site notes.
But these powders don't always ignite the same way as proper FFFg black powder. With a percussion cap it's not a big deal. The caps are hot enough and generate their own pressure wave down through the nipple to make sure the heat and sparks are conducted to the powder well.
But a flintlock is an open pan and relies on the puff through the touch hole to conduct some flame and burning powder. So the ignition source is no where near as strong as a cap burst coming down through a nipple.
I've found that getting ignition through that touch hole on my flintlock rifles is bad enough. I would not want the powder making it any harder.
Now I suppose one could drop a few grains of FFFFg down the muzzle before depositing the Pyrodex. And the amount of FFFFg would simply be deducted from the Pyrodex portion. But I'd want to be fairly desperate to try this much fooling around.
So says the guy that has 8 lbs of proper Goex FFFg sitting in the BP magazine..... So clearly I'm not that desperate....
What they said.
Basically, the difference between real black powder (regardless of granulation) and all of the substitutes is heat of ignition - the temperature required to ignite the powder. The substitutes need a higher temperature. Thus they are more difficult to ignite if the temperature source (hot gas from a percussion cap or the powder in a flintlock pan) is reduced as it is in traveling from the pan through the touch hole. This results in unreliable ignition when substitutes are used as the main charge in a flintlock.
Regarding the differences in granulation, ffffg is usually used as the ignition source in a flintlock pan, but many folks report satisfactory results using fffg.
There really are no hard rules when it comes to black powder (real or substitute). We tend to use generalities - fffg in pistols and revolvers, ffg in long guns, ffffg in flintlock pans - but you can often get away with blurring the lines a bit. If you're really into accuracy for serious competition, then the brand of powder, granulation, amount of compression and several other things can be significant. The fact is that the gun itself matters, so each shooter must develop his best loads by testing - you can get help from what others have done, but you really need to do the work to find out what works best in your set of circumstances. Thus, there are no tables, charts, etc., just a lot of opinions.
Basically, the difference between real black powder (regardless of granulation) and all of the substitutes is heat of ignition - the temperature required to ignite the powder. The substitutes need a higher temperature. Thus they are more difficult to ignite if the temperature source (hot gas from a percussion cap or the powder in a flintlock pan) is reduced as it is in traveling from the pan through the touch hole. This results in unreliable ignition when substitutes are used as the main charge in a flintlock.
Regarding the differences in granulation, ffffg is usually used as the ignition source in a flintlock pan, but many folks report satisfactory results using fffg.
There really are no hard rules when it comes to black powder (real or substitute). We tend to use generalities - fffg in pistols and revolvers, ffg in long guns, ffffg in flintlock pans - but you can often get away with blurring the lines a bit. If you're really into accuracy for serious competition, then the brand of powder, granulation, amount of compression and several other things can be significant. The fact is that the gun itself matters, so each shooter must develop his best loads by testing - you can get help from what others have done, but you really need to do the work to find out what works best in your set of circumstances. Thus, there are no tables, charts, etc., just a lot of opinions.
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BCRider
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I ran with 3F in the pan for about two years before I found an excuse to split a can of 4F with someone. I have not seen any more reliable ignition with the 4F than before with the 3F. I usually get 12 to 16 first time ignitions with a clean gun and fresh flint. At that point I get my first failure to ignite the pan. It goes along with about 1 failure in 4 for another 6 to 8 shots and then it falls to around 50-50 for a while then it sinks to 3 times to get ignition.
Typically when I get to around 50-50 I stop and knap the edge of the flint to freshen it up for the rest of the trail.
Typically when I get to around 50-50 I stop and knap the edge of the flint to freshen it up for the rest of the trail.
Thanks! I shot my flint .50, my first and only BP gun for the first time yesterday! What a hoot! 28gr Pyrodex with 4f in the pan. Windy so only four shots. Hit everything I shot at and can't describe how much fun I had! Back to business. What does it mean to be a BP substitute? How come the .495 ball with the .018 patch just was not going to get pressed? At least it seemed that the force necessary was going to be extreme. The lag time between pan to bang was considerable quicker than I had expected. If I could go back and teach the kid shooting, safety and history I would have started them in the BP world. Now I got grand kids... lot's of um! Must be the water...
The substitutes are just that, not real black powder, but something that behaves very similarly except that it's not classified as a low grade explosive, which is why many won't carry true BP as it requires special storage and regulations.
These subs need a stronger flame, which is why flintlocks have a hard time igniting them.
A .495" ball would likely need a patch closer to .010" or so.
My .50 cal rifle supposedly has .502 lands and .520" grooves (Lyman) and I use .490" balls and pillow ticking which has been either 0.015-6", and it still takes some effort to get it started.
I'd suggest either trying a smaller ball or thinner patch.
These subs need a stronger flame, which is why flintlocks have a hard time igniting them.
A .495" ball would likely need a patch closer to .010" or so.
My .50 cal rifle supposedly has .502 lands and .520" grooves (Lyman) and I use .490" balls and pillow ticking which has been either 0.015-6", and it still takes some effort to get it started.
I'd suggest either trying a smaller ball or thinner patch.
My father had tried to get me involved with BP for a long time. It just seemed silly to me. But now I get it, and it's so much more intriguing. It's also had me reading a little more about the history of the times, and has made me want a couple of flintlocks myself.
I want a Lyman's Plains Pistol (percussion) as I can easily get a spare barrel for it as I'd like to have it bored smooth to 28 ga. I think that would be fun!
The same holds true for my Lyman rifle. I want to use it in similar fashion as a T/C Contender in that I want a barrel with a Malcolm style scope atop for use with conicals and such for hunting fields (I'm thinking of seeing about having a Great Plains Hunter modified to work on my Deerstalker stock), maybe a cut down 16-20" barrel for thick stuff, a smooth 28 ga with a screw in choke maybe for turkey hunting, a short barreled 28 ga for small game hunting, and maybe a custom barrel in .36-.40 cal for small game hunting.
I want a Lyman's Plains Pistol (percussion) as I can easily get a spare barrel for it as I'd like to have it bored smooth to 28 ga. I think that would be fun!
The same holds true for my Lyman rifle. I want to use it in similar fashion as a T/C Contender in that I want a barrel with a Malcolm style scope atop for use with conicals and such for hunting fields (I'm thinking of seeing about having a Great Plains Hunter modified to work on my Deerstalker stock), maybe a cut down 16-20" barrel for thick stuff, a smooth 28 ga with a screw in choke maybe for turkey hunting, a short barreled 28 ga for small game hunting, and maybe a custom barrel in .36-.40 cal for small game hunting.
whughett
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Words of wisdom and experience from all of the above posts.
Would 30 grains of 1Fg have as much energy as the same in 2,3 and 4Fg. Would they compress down to the same under the force of seating a ball in a revolver or on a loading stand, and to further complicate things what is Goex cartridge granulation they list at Powder Inc.
Would 30 grains of 1Fg have as much energy as the same in 2,3 and 4Fg. Would they compress down to the same under the force of seating a ball in a revolver or on a loading stand, and to further complicate things what is Goex cartridge granulation they list at Powder Inc.
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