44 auto mag makes a return
- Thread starter Archibald Stanton
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Big44mag
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I was just curious because those are some pretty high velocities from my experiences. I use H110 mostly, but am still way below your 24gr - 5%. I read an article years ago by Barry Duckworth and Bruce Stark called "In Search of 1250fps", and I used that primarily for my loading data, that and Hodgdon has a max of 21gr of H110 listed on their site, but the max of 24gr of 296 was for standard 44mag.
Are you talking about the .44 Remington Mag? I have two and would not use .44 AutoMag loading data in them. The AutoMag operates at much higher pressures - 50,000+ psi and the case capacity is different between the two.
I have a Desert Eagle, and must of got a good one, because I have had no problems with mine. Granted, you can't load up 5 grains of Unique, and expect it to cycle, but ammo picky it is not. Also, I don't understand the thing about pushing on the mag while firing, is that a thing with firing a 44 mag DE?
Mark_Mark
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you ever get rim lock on the .44 DE? Kidda one of my dream guns
Big44mag
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You are correct, Demo Ranch had two different types of ammunition. He had a few boxes of the old CDM ammunition, which was known the be underpowered and inconsistent, it was also manufactured prior to 1973. The other ammunition he was using appear to be reloads, but who knows who loaded them (experienced or not), with what components, how long ago, and how any of the ammunition was stored for the last 48 years.
Demo Ranch also did not check the recoil springs, or bother to clean the pistol prior to shooting it in the original 44 Auto Mag vid, and he didn't bother to keep an eye on the recoil springs in the Auto Mag "redemption" vid featuring a newly manufactured Auto Mag either.
Big44mag
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The new Auto he shot seemed to run perfectly in the "redemption" vid, until the recoil rod ejected out of the frame. If he had kept an eye on the rods and tightened them as needed, he probably would have praised it, and so would his followers.
Big44mag
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No, I was not suggesting to use 44 Mag data for the 44AMP. I just noticed some of your load data seems to be on par with 44 Mag as you listed 24gr of 296 for a 240gr slug which is what Hodgdon's site lists as a max charge for 44 Mag.
I will say that 50,000 is really high for pressures for the Auto Mag and not recommended for long term use, similar to the Norma ammunition that was made in the early 70s. I know each gun is different and some tuning may be needed, but they should operate reliably closer to the 40,000 mark. You appear to have extremely high velocities out of your loads, even surpassing Lee Jurras' 357AMP load data and beyond recommended pressures. As for 44AMP, 24gr of 296 is higher than the max recommended charge by Hornady, so running 26gr just seems like a bad idea.
Big44mag,
The Hornady manual lists 23.8gr of 296 with a 240gr JHP in reformed military cases. Starline cases have a slightly greater capacity and I load 24.0gr, not 26.
Lee Jurras, Kent Lamont and George Nonte all loaded hotter than I do. I have correspondence from them talking about loads I declined to duplicate, because they could get guns and parts from the factory and I couldn't.
Pressures of 50,000+ are normal in the AutoMag. It's one of the reasons for using the .308 as the parent cartridge case. Kent did extensive pressure testing. I have a letter from him describing pressures well over 50,000.
George listed a max of 33.0 / 296 with the 180 gr JHP with military brass. I'm sure that would be a safe load in Starline brass, but don't see the point of going that hot.
The Hornady manual lists 23.8gr of 296 with a 240gr JHP in reformed military cases. Starline cases have a slightly greater capacity and I load 24.0gr, not 26.
Lee Jurras, Kent Lamont and George Nonte all loaded hotter than I do. I have correspondence from them talking about loads I declined to duplicate, because they could get guns and parts from the factory and I couldn't.
Pressures of 50,000+ are normal in the AutoMag. It's one of the reasons for using the .308 as the parent cartridge case. Kent did extensive pressure testing. I have a letter from him describing pressures well over 50,000.
George listed a max of 33.0 / 296 with the 180 gr JHP with military brass. I'm sure that would be a safe load in Starline brass, but don't see the point of going that hot.
Big44mag
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I know Kent and Lee were both hotrodders and ran some pretty high numbers, and you are correct that they had access to plenty of parts so it wasn't a big deal if they chipped a bolt lug or sheared a cocking piece, but the original design was not adequate for higher PSI. Even the book written by Bruce Stark shows improvement notes by Bob Barbasiewicz to get them to handle 40,000, and then additional thickness added to the barrel for additional safety on production guns. Most load data is recorded to be in the mid 40,000 range with some spiking to high 40,000, and a couple just over 50,000, but that puts it on par, again with Norma which was not recommended for long term use.
I'm glad your loads have been working so well, but you did mention that you have run some at 26gr, which I couldn't find any data confirming that it's a recommended safe load no matter if using converted mil brass, CDM, or Starline.
I try to run light loads with H110 in my Auto Mags because replacement parts are non existent, but I'm curious to revisit W296.
What are some of the lightest loads you've run with 296 and a 240gr Sierra?
I'm glad your loads have been working so well, but you did mention that you have run some at 26gr, which I couldn't find any data confirming that it's a recommended safe load no matter if using converted mil brass, CDM, or Starline.
I try to run light loads with H110 in my Auto Mags because replacement parts are non existent, but I'm curious to revisit W296.
What are some of the lightest loads you've run with 296 and a 240gr Sierra?
Kent, in his article, "World's Most Potent Auto" talks about "heavy working loads" - 180 gr at 1800 fps in 6 1/2" and 2050 fps in 10 1/2". I'm getting 1800 and 2010.
In a letter to me, he defines "heavy working load" as one that will run 100%, but isn't hot enough to stress the gun.
In his article in the 7th Handloader's Digest, he says, "The AutoMag operates at 45,000 to 50,000 CUP". On page 91, he lists loads for the 180 up to 34.0/296 (!) and the 240 up to 29.0/296 which he says will pierce primers in some guns. All loads with the 240 Sierra under 24.0/296 are marked "NG", meaning they won't function. 23.0/296 won't reliably eject cases in my gun.
Quote: "Best loads in most guns (240 Sierra) is 25.0 to 27.0 grs". That's hotter than I care to go. Parts are theoretically available from the current manufacturer, but I don't want to break anything. I have just one bolt rotation pin from 40-odd years ago.
I don't remember the 240/26.0/296 load you mentioned. If I typed that, it was a typo.
In a letter to me, he defines "heavy working load" as one that will run 100%, but isn't hot enough to stress the gun.
In his article in the 7th Handloader's Digest, he says, "The AutoMag operates at 45,000 to 50,000 CUP". On page 91, he lists loads for the 180 up to 34.0/296 (!) and the 240 up to 29.0/296 which he says will pierce primers in some guns. All loads with the 240 Sierra under 24.0/296 are marked "NG", meaning they won't function. 23.0/296 won't reliably eject cases in my gun.
Quote: "Best loads in most guns (240 Sierra) is 25.0 to 27.0 grs". That's hotter than I care to go. Parts are theoretically available from the current manufacturer, but I don't want to break anything. I have just one bolt rotation pin from 40-odd years ago.
I don't remember the 240/26.0/296 load you mentioned. If I typed that, it was a typo.
In a letter to Lee Jurras in Nov 1974, I described my results with cast bullets in AutoMags.
.44 AMP: Lyman 429215GC / 225 gr / 26.0 /296 / CDM brass / CCI350 / 1554 fps in a 6 1/2" barrel.
.357AMP: Lyman 358156GC / 162 gr / 22.5 / 296 / LC66 Match brass / 2026 fps in an 8 1/2" barrel.
CAUTION: I don't recommend these loads. They're a glance at history and that's all.
.44 AMP: Lyman 429215GC / 225 gr / 26.0 /296 / CDM brass / CCI350 / 1554 fps in a 6 1/2" barrel.
.357AMP: Lyman 358156GC / 162 gr / 22.5 / 296 / LC66 Match brass / 2026 fps in an 8 1/2" barrel.
CAUTION: I don't recommend these loads. They're a glance at history and that's all.
Mark_Mark
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I should have been born in the 50!
Big44mag
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Awesome photo.
This was one of mine from last season. It was a weird shot from a stand shooting at about the 8 o'clock position, 44 though not 357 at roughly 30yds.
Mark_Mark
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nice photo! cell phone cameras have come a long ways
Big44mag
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Thank you.
No kidding about phone cameras, I've got an older Nikon that takes great pictures, but my cell has more than twice the megapixels.
There are guns that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars..You look at it from that perspective 4k is pretty cheap.. Hi-Point perspective not so much.
They tooled up and spent 6yrs fixing the original gun and you think they should sell it for pennies?
Mark_Mark
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$4,000 is a ton of money
Big44mag
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The new Auto Mags go for between $3,500 and $4,400 depending on options (finish / accessories), but the originals can vary generally between $3,000 and $60,000 depending on what edition the Auto Mag is, and of course the condition. The very first "Originals" were made in Pasadena, CA, but there were other manufacturers involved throughout the years such as, but not limited to TDE (Trade Deed Estates) North Hollywood, TDE El Monte, CA, High Standard, AMT, OMC, and limited run guns made by a few smiths including Lee Jurras, Ed O'Neil, Kent Lomont and Larry Grossman.
Gladius
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Mine's a TDE North Hollywood. I got it early last year for just a bit less than $3,000 (in an unusual sequence of perfect financial events, the likes of which I may not see for a while. Anyway, it's not in perfect condition -- there's a bit of rust pitting on the surface). No, I still haven't shot it (commercial ammo ain't cheap and I don't handload). I'd love to have one of the new ones, but that's not feasible right now. I'll just have to content myself, I guess...
Big44mag
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Good looking pistol.
Before you shoot it, I would probably recommend changing the recoil springs. Replacement springs are available from Wolff under the manufacturer AMT for about $13. You would have to measure the recoil rods and see if you have rods that are .200 or .182 and order accordingly, but at least you know the springs are new. Pic of the springs below.
You said that "commercial ammo ain't cheap", if you have the opportunity to pick some up locally at retail, you might want to consider doing it because of how scarce it is. On the secondary market, ammunition is going for ridiculous prices, and even reloading components are almost nonexistent and outrageously expensive.
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