FLAvalanche
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Former Marine. There is no such thing as an ex-marine.
.44 Mag too Weak for Black Bear in Oregon?
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Former Marine. There is no such thing as an ex-marine.
paintballdude902
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the .44 mag is the preferred rifle cartridge for bear here. alotta guys use the ruger .44 carbine or the winchester 94 in .44 mag
i generally use a .45-70 but i still hunt opposed to dog hunt and generally am not with many (if any) other hunters. i have also been known to use 180gr or larger bullets in my .30-06
i generally use a .45-70 but i still hunt opposed to dog hunt and generally am not with many (if any) other hunters. i have also been known to use 180gr or larger bullets in my .30-06
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I've killed multiple black bears with a hand gun. A .44 mag with good old 240 gr soft points is great black bear medicine. I've killed and seen killed a pile of black bears with a good old .357 using 158 gr soft points.
Black bear are a relatively soft easy to kill animal.
Whoever told the OP that a .44 mag won't handle black bear needs to get a handle on reality.
Black bear are a relatively soft easy to kill animal.
Whoever told the OP that a .44 mag won't handle black bear needs to get a handle on reality.
22-rimfire
Member
I believe your friend doesn't know what he is talking about other than comparing a 44 mag to a typical bear hunting rifle round. The rifle round is better, but the 44 is sufficient medicine.
Hmm, I agree that you are well protected, but you're more likely to run into a pot farm out in the woods then a black bear or cougar/mountain lion. Pot is KY's #1 cash crop.
Hmm, I agree that you are well protected, but you're more likely to run into a pot farm out in the woods then a black bear or cougar/mountain lion. Pot is KY's #1 cash crop.
Sunray
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"...He claims the only gun..." He's confused. However, no firearm, including a 12 ga. slug, is enough to guarantee a one shot stop if Yogi in coming at full speed from under 100 yards. Yogi can run at 35 mph. That's 5.84 seconds to cover 100 yards. You'll never be fast enough.
I agree your friend is wrong on this one. While I have not taken a bear with a handgun before. I have taken them with a bow and arrow and another with a .270 win. A .44 mag loaded as you described will take down a black bear without a problem. People seem to view bears as a mass murdering brute and destroys everything in its path. Granted they are tougher than you or I but certainly not tougher than a well placed .44
zxcvbob
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Are you talking about hunting bears, or a defensive round for bears? There's a big difference. No handgun round is really adequate to protect against an enraged bear that is on top of you, although some will get the job done if you get lucky.
usmc1371
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I hunted behind hounds in Idaho for black bear a few years ago and had the chance to talk to some bear guides who have killed and seen killed a lot of bears. both my guides packed SnW 357 with off the shelf cast bullets and both said they had no problem killing bears that clients knocked out of trees with piss poor shots. After a day of chasing dogs up and down the Saw Tooths I was ready to leave my guide gun 45-70 in camp and pack my ruger sbh .44 with fed 300 grain hard cast rounds and both guides said I should expect an exit wound on just about any black bear at pistol range. They also made me prove I could hit a paper plate at 50 yards befor we left camp. I ended up getting my bear with the guide gun but would have been happy to shoot one with the 44. A very old guide/camp cook told me he would rather have his "44 lever gun" than anything else when hunting black bear behind hounds. He also pointed out how handy it would be to have 8 or 9 fast shots in long gun if he should happen to catch any filthy wolfs messing with his hounds... Then he did one of those old man don't ask any more questions laughs.
Black bears ain't bullet proof but they do have the tools to mess you up if you make a bad shot, so if you going to pack a 44 just make sure you can make a good shot in a hurry. The power aint the problem its the placement with a hand gun that seems to be the problem.
I have killed black bear in Oregon and Idaho, at less than 20 yards.
Black bears ain't bullet proof but they do have the tools to mess you up if you make a bad shot, so if you going to pack a 44 just make sure you can make a good shot in a hurry. The power aint the problem its the placement with a hand gun that seems to be the problem.
I have killed black bear in Oregon and Idaho, at less than 20 yards.
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IdahoLT1
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IMO, 10mm and 357 are sufficient for black bear. A .44mag is even more potent.
For hunting/fishing, hiking or camping, I would only carry one handgun/revolver. I carried my 1006(loaded with 200gr FMJ's) when I was backpacking in the white clouds a few days ago. I would only carry one handgun because of weight. Hiking 11 miles in a day at 9500ft with a 50lb pack will wear on anybody. Even my younger brother, who is a State wrestler/swimmer, runs miles in our foot hills and is in perfect shape, was challenged by the trip.
Another 2-3lbs for an additional but less powered firearm is unnecessary IMO. Just like my 10mm, I would use a .44mag for 2 legged predators as well as 4 legged. You're in the mountains/forest so the concern of over-penatration is nil. In an urban setting, the concern for over-penetration is much greater.
For hunting/fishing, hiking or camping, I would only carry one handgun/revolver. I carried my 1006(loaded with 200gr FMJ's) when I was backpacking in the white clouds a few days ago. I would only carry one handgun because of weight. Hiking 11 miles in a day at 9500ft with a 50lb pack will wear on anybody. Even my younger brother, who is a State wrestler/swimmer, runs miles in our foot hills and is in perfect shape, was challenged by the trip.
Another 2-3lbs for an additional but less powered firearm is unnecessary IMO. Just like my 10mm, I would use a .44mag for 2 legged predators as well as 4 legged. You're in the mountains/forest so the concern of over-penatration is nil. In an urban setting, the concern for over-penetration is much greater.
Greg Koziol
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I think your friend is right. I am on the other side of the country from... I live in New York. About an hour north of new york city and i've been hunting in the catskill mountains here since i was a kid. I grew up on Long island. In the past 5 to 10 years the bear population in my area has EXPLODED. Also the neighboring states like pennyslvania have always had a massive bear population. The reason is the great habitat, old oak and beech stands, blueberry thickets, and plenty of bogs and swamps and plenty of roadkill and deer for them to hunt. They get big up here too... most adult males will get up to 400 pounds easily. A lot get over 500-600 pounds and these 500-600 pound monsters frequent developments and suburban areas for garbage and domestic pets. Actually if you read back to 2004 a bear in the catskillls in a town called FALLSBURGH snatched a baby from it's stroller in someone's backyard and drag it into the woods... it made national headlines.
I think our friend is right, a lot of people understand black bears because of what is put out by popular tv shows like discovery channel and versus channel, which show black bears to be weak and small bears that can lose a fight to a squirrel over an acorn. I'm 6'3'' and 285 pound powerlifting, I can squat over 700 pounds and deadlift over 800 pounds and close grip bench in the low 400's, and I came upon a bear track a month ago that made my size 13 shoe look like a baby's feet in comparison. The point is that a 400 pound bear or 500 or 600 pound bear... while not a brown bear can still kill you. Most adult black bears are as big, if not bigger than a male lion or even some tigers.. though they don't have razor sharp claws they have that size and mass that is difficult to overcome without a modern rifle.
Black bears are born to be opportunistic and they are very curious and intelligent, they are like giant raccoons... they will eat anything that looks remotely edible. They eat EVERYTHING. Unfortunately sometimes a human walking down a hiking trail on a nice sunday afternoon may look edible to a black bear, especially if a bear has never seen people before.
A bear will atleast investigate a person before it gets scared, especially if it has never seen a person. Depending on how you react the bear will either run from you or try to eat you.
It is worth noting that a large adult male bear over 400 pounds is extra confident because of it's size and therefore has little fear of man unless it has been shot at or harassed by man before.
Your friend is 100% right if a mature adult black bear is chargin you full speed a 44 magnum will not have enough power and the bullet will not be big enough to IMMOBILIZE it.
Your friend is right and i'll tell you why, The key difference between a self defense weapon and a hunting weapon is that a hunting weapon does not need to immobilize the animal only needs to kill it... if the animal runs a few hundred feet its ok as long as he dies without a lot of pain, humane kill is all we're after here. But in a self defense scenario where a male adult black bear is defending his territory from you during the rut in early summer or trying to eat you, you need a big bullet of 400 grains or larger to obliterate all vital organs to stop the animal in its tracks.
Ideally you would want a brain shot if you can pull it off, but the risk of missing is too high, which is why you would want to shoot the shoulder bone and break it's shoulder to slow it down, then reload go for one more into the heart, then reload and put one into it's head if necessary. But with a .44 magnum the bullet is just not large enough and not fast enough to penetrate through the massive layers of muscle and bone.
for hunting a black bear with a .44 magnum, that is a different story... that you could do.. but it would not stop a charging bear.
Your friend is right that the animal may not realize he is hurt and keep mauling... just for example look at professional athletes or UFC fighters... some of these guys get hit and break there nose and don't even realize it because of the adrenaline
When the bear is attacking you he will be in "fight or flight" mode just like you will be, and he will not feel pain... all thats going through his head is to neutralize you and eat you if he is starving to death. Therefore you will need a weapon that will basically immobilize the bear with one shot.
I think our friend is right, a lot of people understand black bears because of what is put out by popular tv shows like discovery channel and versus channel, which show black bears to be weak and small bears that can lose a fight to a squirrel over an acorn. I'm 6'3'' and 285 pound powerlifting, I can squat over 700 pounds and deadlift over 800 pounds and close grip bench in the low 400's, and I came upon a bear track a month ago that made my size 13 shoe look like a baby's feet in comparison. The point is that a 400 pound bear or 500 or 600 pound bear... while not a brown bear can still kill you. Most adult black bears are as big, if not bigger than a male lion or even some tigers.. though they don't have razor sharp claws they have that size and mass that is difficult to overcome without a modern rifle.
Black bears are born to be opportunistic and they are very curious and intelligent, they are like giant raccoons... they will eat anything that looks remotely edible. They eat EVERYTHING. Unfortunately sometimes a human walking down a hiking trail on a nice sunday afternoon may look edible to a black bear, especially if a bear has never seen people before.
A bear will atleast investigate a person before it gets scared, especially if it has never seen a person. Depending on how you react the bear will either run from you or try to eat you.
It is worth noting that a large adult male bear over 400 pounds is extra confident because of it's size and therefore has little fear of man unless it has been shot at or harassed by man before.
Your friend is 100% right if a mature adult black bear is chargin you full speed a 44 magnum will not have enough power and the bullet will not be big enough to IMMOBILIZE it.
Your friend is right and i'll tell you why, The key difference between a self defense weapon and a hunting weapon is that a hunting weapon does not need to immobilize the animal only needs to kill it... if the animal runs a few hundred feet its ok as long as he dies without a lot of pain, humane kill is all we're after here. But in a self defense scenario where a male adult black bear is defending his territory from you during the rut in early summer or trying to eat you, you need a big bullet of 400 grains or larger to obliterate all vital organs to stop the animal in its tracks.
Ideally you would want a brain shot if you can pull it off, but the risk of missing is too high, which is why you would want to shoot the shoulder bone and break it's shoulder to slow it down, then reload go for one more into the heart, then reload and put one into it's head if necessary. But with a .44 magnum the bullet is just not large enough and not fast enough to penetrate through the massive layers of muscle and bone.
for hunting a black bear with a .44 magnum, that is a different story... that you could do.. but it would not stop a charging bear.
Your friend is right that the animal may not realize he is hurt and keep mauling... just for example look at professional athletes or UFC fighters... some of these guys get hit and break there nose and don't even realize it because of the adrenaline
When the bear is attacking you he will be in "fight or flight" mode just like you will be, and he will not feel pain... all thats going through his head is to neutralize you and eat you if he is starving to death. Therefore you will need a weapon that will basically immobilize the bear with one shot.
Greg Koziol
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It's different when you watch black bears on TV shows or on the Versus channel or hunting shows and they look so small and unimpressive. But when your in the wood by yourself or with a buddy and in a densely wooded area with fresh bear tracks all over, you really don't know the feeling of nakedness... until you've experienced it you will not understand. Even with a high power rifle you still feel vulnerable and naked because you don't knwo if the bear is watching you or if he's stalking you. Bears have a good sense of smell and most likely will circle around areas they frequenty downwind to scope out their territory. I'm telling you man, they look small and unimpressive on TV but wait one day until your hiking by yourself without your rifle, say your just going fishing and you stumble into one on a hiking trail that was stalking you and your 20 feet away from a bear thats 500 pounds and you got nothing but your fishing pole or tackle box.. gaurantee they won't feel so unimpressive then
Greg Koziol
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My sister and I have been stalked by black bears. Once I was stalked while scouting alone in a new hunting spot here in the catskills, I was hiking on a trail and I knew i was in a high bear area and blueberry patches everywhere so naturally i was scouting the ground looking for tracks.. I stopped to eat lunch and on my way back from eating lunch maybe .25 mile from where i ate lunch i saw a fresh pair of tracks crossing the trail that weren't there on my way in. Kind of creeps you out.
Greg Koziol
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Another time my sister and her boyfriend at the time were hiking in shenandoah valley national park on the appalachian trail in virginia which is like 2 hours west of washington d.c. And they were hiking when all of a sudden they looked behind them and they saw a bear following them.. Nothing happened, but something easily could have turned dangerous considering the fact that they were not armed
Bullet construction matters a lot more than caliber. A 250-260 hardcast 44 or 45 bullet at moderate speed will perform similar to or better than 30-06 for penetration. Plenty for Elk.
I would want a hardcast bullet when handgun hunting. On small big game like deer and black bear a nosler partition or CCI/Speer Unicore would be okay.
But 44 magnum with 300 or heavier hardcast bullet is plenty for hunting anything in North America. Some people might want more for Brown Bears but it isn't need IMO.
Look up JD Jones and Larry Kelly and see the game they have killed with 44 magnum. Not to mention Elmer Keith or Ross Seyfried. You can also look up Linebaugh http://www.customsixguns.com/pricing.htm and Bowen http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/
Phil Shoemaker stopped brown bear charge with 357 magnum and non expanding 180's.
IMHO a 38+P with hardcast would be fine for killing a black bear with headshots up close. So would the 7.62x25mm/30 Mauser with FMJ. Not that I would recommend those for hunting.
I would want a hardcast bullet when handgun hunting. On small big game like deer and black bear a nosler partition or CCI/Speer Unicore would be okay.
But 44 magnum with 300 or heavier hardcast bullet is plenty for hunting anything in North America. Some people might want more for Brown Bears but it isn't need IMO.
Look up JD Jones and Larry Kelly and see the game they have killed with 44 magnum. Not to mention Elmer Keith or Ross Seyfried. You can also look up Linebaugh http://www.customsixguns.com/pricing.htm and Bowen http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/
Phil Shoemaker stopped brown bear charge with 357 magnum and non expanding 180's.
IMHO a 38+P with hardcast would be fine for killing a black bear with headshots up close. So would the 7.62x25mm/30 Mauser with FMJ. Not that I would recommend those for hunting.
ACLakey
Member
I have killed black bears here in Oregon with a 44 and it did a fine job. In fact I have three slugs recovered from two bears that worked well. I have a buddy that is able to run bears with dogs and has killed quite a few with his 44 over the years. As far as stoping a charging bear dead in it's tracks...that may be a different story. I know however that a 44 is powerful enough to take out major joints and imobilize a bear and or kill a bear under hunting conditions.
On a side note, the likleyhood of being attacked by a bear in the woods is very slim, even if you spend an extrordnary amount of time there.
On a side note, the likleyhood of being attacked by a bear in the woods is very slim, even if you spend an extrordnary amount of time there.
jonboynumba1
Member
I love my .44....I have never been charged by a bear or shot at one...I'd be happy to keep that arrangement if they will go along. Not many in AL. we do have some HUGE hogs on our club land now though...I love my .44 even more It's the biggest HG caliber I can see me owning...and I like the whole elmer keith lineage to...I don't subscribe to rusty old Keith or O'Conner's beliefs....I like reading em both...and .270 is my favorite all around rifle round...and .44 is second only to my beloved .45...which is of course....a horse of a different color. Many that have come before us have found the .44 stoked properly to be enough for about anything....including things much bigger than a man really ought to plan on killing with a HG ideally. It's the badest HG in my arsenal I guess...so that's what I'd have to go with if I was in your shoes. Mine is a 7.5" SBH. I'd like to find a model 29 with a 5" bbl. im excellent shape like Keiths...it will walk in the door one day...and I will buy it and be happy to own it....been waiting 6 years for it so far-LOL. All we can do is look to those who have come before us and learn from them...from what I've read and seen confirmed here -nothing has magically changed about bears in the last 50 years making them harder to kill.
It's the biggest HG caliber I can see me owning...and I like the whole elmer keith lineage to...I don't subscribe to rusty old Keith or O'Conner's beliefs....I like reading em both...and .270 is my favorite all around rifle round...and .44 is second only to my beloved .45...which is of course....a horse of a different color. Many that have come before us have found the .44 stoked properly to be enough for about anything....including things much bigger than a man really ought to plan on killing with a HG ideally. It's the badest HG in my arsenal I guess...so that's what I'd have to go with if I was in your shoes. Mine is a 7.5" SBH. I'd like to find a model 29 with a 5" bbl. im excellent shape like Keiths...it will walk in the door one day...and I will buy it and be happy to own it....been waiting 6 years for it so far-LOL. All we can do is look to those who have come before us and learn from them...from what I've read and seen confirmed here -nothing has magically changed about bears in the last 50 years making them harder to kill.06
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My woods carry is a 357 and I feel completely safe. It is more than enough to stop any animal around here(NC). There was an incident two yrs ago when a gent hit a grizzly six times with a 44 and the bear ran off. They tracked him down and finished him off. A 44 might not stop one but it sure changed that one's mind. Bet the gent had to wipe afterwards--knowing he was out of boolits. We have had blacks and browns in our camps and I occasionally see one around here.
Oh yes, just tell your "44 is not enough for blacks" to start carrying a 50 BMG. Maybe he will feel safer. And yes, there is a gent in NC who hunts bears with a 22 rim fire. He has probably killed hundreds with the lowly round. My Charleston, SC bud uses one to hunt deer and with great success. I will not be making it my "bear stopper" but it can be done.
Oh yes, just tell your "44 is not enough for blacks" to start carrying a 50 BMG. Maybe he will feel safer. And yes, there is a gent in NC who hunts bears with a 22 rim fire. He has probably killed hundreds with the lowly round. My Charleston, SC bud uses one to hunt deer and with great success. I will not be making it my "bear stopper" but it can be done.
I have full confidence that a .44 cal will kill a black bear nearly 100% of the time if the shot is placed correctly. I am not confident enough with a handgun to say I could do this 100% of the time. I do carry a .44 in Alaska but accept the fact that under stress the propper shot placement is not a sure thing.
I am very confident that could place the shot where it belongs using my rifle. For me, the bigger issue is shot placement rather than penetration.
I am very confident that could place the shot where it belongs using my rifle. For me, the bigger issue is shot placement rather than penetration.
Personally, I'd say a .357 magnum with 180 gr or 200 gr hardcast bullets would be "adequate" for black bear defense, though a .44 mag would be better. Really, you need to get a solid brain or heart shot, or make a loud noise that scares the bear, to stop a charge. And to be able to reach the vitals from any angle, you need heavy hardcast bullets. .357s will penetrate just as well as .44s given those criteria, you just end up with a slightly smaller hole. In the heart or brain, no difference. On a lung shot... okay, you get both your arms and legs ripped off, instead of both arms and one leg, before the bear bleeds out.
Hunting is completely different, though. Different angles, fewer shots, different shot placements.
Hunting is completely different, though. Different angles, fewer shots, different shot placements.
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
This is really the question, isn't it? No doubt many black bears have fallen to .44 magnum loads fired from handguns. But defeating a charging animal that has YOU in its sights is going to be iffy with any handgun.
I've never hunted bear, but have shot lots of .44 mags in both handguns and rifles. In your situation, I'd carry the .44 (and probably not bother with the .45) as my preferred handgun ... if I decided not to carry a rifle or slug gun.
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