.44 Magnum in law enforcement
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Master Blaster
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More important to law enforcement is cost and effectiveness of the platform against human targets, based upon limited training. A .44 magnum revolver, holds too few rounds, takes too long to reload, is too expensive, too big and heavy, and too difficult to shoot putting 10 rounds on target in a reasonable amount of time. A .40 S&W handgun holds more rounds and is effective at stopping a human target, and easier to handle, shoot, and reload. .44 mag loads can be adjusted for power level from 850 fps specials at 200 grains on up so that is not an issue. I am picking a 5 because your power level question is irrelevant to law enforcement unless they are arresting a grizzly bear, and then a shotgun loaded with slugs or a 30-.06 rifle is better.
I can still remember back in the 60s when a number of Depts. tried to use the .41 Mag. and quickly found that the cops in the field couldn't deal with the recoil or blast or the weight of the gun. I really don't think that today with so many female officers in the ranks that a .44 Mag gun would ever even be considered. I agree with Master Blaster that if your sidearm is not up to the task before you - grab the shotgun......
BobWright
Member
Current police practice is "spray and pray" so even a thirty round magazine is inefficient for their use. I remind you, Sheriff Buford Pusser did carry a .44 Magnum. Also a friend of mine, police chief in Arkansas and in on the arrest of James Earl Ray, also carried a nickeled Model 29 .44 Magnum.
Bob Wright
Bob Wright
Blacksmoke
Member
Years ago, I read an article about a New York State Police Officer who carried a .44 mag. His reasoning focused on penetration of vehicles which was important to him.
Jump to the early 21st century and an incident I saw on film with a California Highway Patrol officer attempting to stop a motor vehicle. He fired several rounds from his .40 duty pistol and the car drove past him and off down the road. I remember the look of disgust on his face as he examined the auto in his hand. Perhaps he was thinking of the Model 28 Smith & Wesson or Colt Python left behind? So, I get the reason behind a heavy caliber for law enforcement.
Jump to the early 21st century and an incident I saw on film with a California Highway Patrol officer attempting to stop a motor vehicle. He fired several rounds from his .40 duty pistol and the car drove past him and off down the road. I remember the look of disgust on his face as he examined the auto in his hand. Perhaps he was thinking of the Model 28 Smith & Wesson or Colt Python left behind? So, I get the reason behind a heavy caliber for law enforcement.
Jim Watson
Member
A deputy here carried a .44 Magnum. He had a powerful grip and could bring a suspect to his knees with the Spock Pinch.
But he borrowed a friend's Python when qualification time rolled around.
Even for someone as powerful as him, there is a difference between six shots and sixty.
But he borrowed a friend's Python when qualification time rolled around.
Even for someone as powerful as him, there is a difference between six shots and sixty.
Full bore 44 mag is way overpowered for routine LE use. The idea of stopping a car by shooting at it with a handgun is plain silly.
I did know one guy on my LE career that carried a 4" Model 29 as a duty gun back in the 70s. He carried a 240 gr load @ about 1100 fps in the gun. He did carry some full bore loads "in case".
"Pray and spray" is not current police practice. 40 years ago the double tap came into the vogue. I think it was Cooper who said "someone who deserves to be shot deserves to be shot at least twice". The problem is many bad guys took those two rounds and were still able to fight back for a bit. Current police practice (or at least what I taught) was to shoot until the threat stopped. It might happen with one round, it might take 10, but shoot until they stop.
The inability of women to deal with recoil is a myth. Remember there are lots of small guys out there who are good shooters using guns with heavy recoil. Women are no different if they want to learn how to shoot something.
I did know one guy on my LE career that carried a 4" Model 29 as a duty gun back in the 70s. He carried a 240 gr load @ about 1100 fps in the gun. He did carry some full bore loads "in case".
"Pray and spray" is not current police practice. 40 years ago the double tap came into the vogue. I think it was Cooper who said "someone who deserves to be shot deserves to be shot at least twice". The problem is many bad guys took those two rounds and were still able to fight back for a bit. Current police practice (or at least what I taught) was to shoot until the threat stopped. It might happen with one round, it might take 10, but shoot until they stop.
The inability of women to deal with recoil is a myth. Remember there are lots of small guys out there who are good shooters using guns with heavy recoil. Women are no different if they want to learn how to shoot something.
Elm Creek Smith
Member
I went with 8 because, as Drail noted above, like the .41 Magnum, the .44 Magnum with full power loads is just too hard for most folks to handle with excessive blast and recoil. I think the 6 shot capacity and weight is irrelevant, but I carry a 4 inch S&W Model 686-6 on duty. (Yes, I'm the dinosaur.) I used to carry a 4 inch S&W Model 629 loaded with mid-range magnum loads, and after I had elbow surgery, unrelated to the .44 Magnum, it became my wife's "house gun," loaded with .44 Special 200 grain Silvertips.
Back to Drail's comment, to be fair, Bill Jordan and Elmer Keith proposed a 200 grain lead SWC at 900 fps "police load" and a 210 grain JHP at 1300-1400 fps for the .41 Magnum. Remington, all wound up in "magnumitis," produced a 210 grain JHP at an advertised 1500 fps and a "police load" with a 210 grain SWC at 1150 fps. S&W just used their N frame instead of going to a smaller, lighter gun (think L frame +) to handle the smaller cartridge, so the guns were big and heavier than a .44 Magnum. Even at that, the 4 inch S&W Model 58 would have been a decent law enforcement sidearm with the original "police load" if it's introduction hadn't coincided with 1) pressure to hire more females as police officers and 2) the start of the move to semiautomatics by PDs. These and the development of reliably expanding JHPs in lesser calibers destroyed any chance of the .41 Magnum to be widely adopted for law enforcement use.
As a side note, my S&W 629 is long gone, and my wife now has my old 4 inch S&W Model 681 with Crimson Trace grips loaded with 125 grain SJHP Remington .38 Special +P ammunition. Off duty I carry a 3 inch S&W Model 13-3 and/or a 2 inch S&W Model 12-2 and always a S&W Model 642-2.
Back to Drail's comment, to be fair, Bill Jordan and Elmer Keith proposed a 200 grain lead SWC at 900 fps "police load" and a 210 grain JHP at 1300-1400 fps for the .41 Magnum. Remington, all wound up in "magnumitis," produced a 210 grain JHP at an advertised 1500 fps and a "police load" with a 210 grain SWC at 1150 fps. S&W just used their N frame instead of going to a smaller, lighter gun (think L frame +) to handle the smaller cartridge, so the guns were big and heavier than a .44 Magnum. Even at that, the 4 inch S&W Model 58 would have been a decent law enforcement sidearm with the original "police load" if it's introduction hadn't coincided with 1) pressure to hire more females as police officers and 2) the start of the move to semiautomatics by PDs. These and the development of reliably expanding JHPs in lesser calibers destroyed any chance of the .41 Magnum to be widely adopted for law enforcement use.
As a side note, my S&W 629 is long gone, and my wife now has my old 4 inch S&W Model 681 with Crimson Trace grips loaded with 125 grain SJHP Remington .38 Special +P ammunition. Off duty I carry a 3 inch S&W Model 13-3 and/or a 2 inch S&W Model 12-2 and always a S&W Model 642-2.
kBob
Member
I did not respond to the power issue and choose a poll number.
There is more to "power" with regard to police use than a title. There is more to deciding which side arm to issue than caliber. I will type in all honesty that I think a S&W Model 15 in .38 Special or a S&W Model 19 in .357 would make a better police side arm for general issue than a Model 29 in .44 Magnum ......if restricted to revolvers.
I think the .44 magnum makes a great hunting handgun. For "anti personel" use I can think of much better guns. For public relations a WHOLE LOT of better guns. For wearing on ones person in a uniform maner getting in and out of cars all day and night a HEAP OF A LOT of better guns.
-kBob
There is more to "power" with regard to police use than a title. There is more to deciding which side arm to issue than caliber. I will type in all honesty that I think a S&W Model 15 in .38 Special or a S&W Model 19 in .357 would make a better police side arm for general issue than a Model 29 in .44 Magnum ......if restricted to revolvers.
I think the .44 magnum makes a great hunting handgun. For "anti personel" use I can think of much better guns. For public relations a WHOLE LOT of better guns. For wearing on ones person in a uniform maner getting in and out of cars all day and night a HEAP OF A LOT of better guns.
-kBob
My thoughts are the police should have stayed with DA revolvers. Specifically the S&W Model 58 with the original 210 gr. @ 900 fps. load. That formula still works today just like it did before. The idea that a double stack high cap pistol is now "necessary" for L.E. because of "new threats" is absurd. But it made a WHOLE BUNCH of money for a whole bunch of manufacturers and salesman. Many females simply do not have hands large enough to reach around an N frame or a double stack or most of the guns issued today. It has nothing to do them "learning" how to handle recoil. I taught women to shoot for several years and I know quite well what they are capable of.
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kBob
Member
Drail,
A Model 58 is an N frame. That is why I mentioned two K frame guns from the way back.
-kBob
A Model 58 is an N frame. That is why I mentioned two K frame guns from the way back.
-kBob
Sunray
Member
"...female officers in the ranks..." An 'N' Frame Smith isn't far too big for just women. Doesn't come close to fitting my mitt. And a Desert Eagle is just hilarious in my hand. Trigger finger comes to the side of the trigger.
Anyway, there are 2 issues with the use of a .44 Mag. One being the citizen's perception of the word 'Magnum' thanks to Eastwood's fictional character blowing heads "clean off". The other being the felt recoil, size of the firearms and excessive penetration. Not to mention that a lot of jurisdictions(likely most of 'em) do not allow employees to carry anything but what they're issued. Especially considering most cops never saw a real firearm before getting hired.
In any case, a 6" Smith 29 weighs 45.0 oz. Police firearms are carried far more than they are ever fired, nobody would want to lug that much weight around hanging off their pants.
Anyway, there are 2 issues with the use of a .44 Mag. One being the citizen's perception of the word 'Magnum' thanks to Eastwood's fictional character blowing heads "clean off". The other being the felt recoil, size of the firearms and excessive penetration. Not to mention that a lot of jurisdictions(likely most of 'em) do not allow employees to carry anything but what they're issued. Especially considering most cops never saw a real firearm before getting hired.
In any case, a 6" Smith 29 weighs 45.0 oz. Police firearms are carried far more than they are ever fired, nobody would want to lug that much weight around hanging off their pants.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Not applicable. You can't get there from here. Way more recoil than you want in a fighting revolver and available bullets are too tough for anti-personnel use. Throttle it back to where recoil is manageable and you have a .44Spl. Use a more tender bullet, which would be extremely effective terminally and you still have the recoil to contend with.
As far as weight, a 4" N-frame is pretty packable and a fully loaded double stack auto is not exactly featherweight.
As far as weight, a 4" N-frame is pretty packable and a fully loaded double stack auto is not exactly featherweight.
Statistically speaking, considering how often they miss, it sure seems that way.
Panzerschwein
member
No way! Not with 240 grain and above loads.
There ARE some 180-200 grain SJHP and JHP .44 magnum loads that COULD be usable in the roll, by a competent officer who knows how to run a big revolver properly. But there is a reason why the .357 was the "King of the Streets" in it's day. Plenty of power for stopping dangerous humans but not "too much of a good thing" as it were.
There ARE some 180-200 grain SJHP and JHP .44 magnum loads that COULD be usable in the roll, by a competent officer who knows how to run a big revolver properly. But there is a reason why the .357 was the "King of the Streets" in it's day. Plenty of power for stopping dangerous humans but not "too much of a good thing" as it were.
VINTAGE-SLOTCARS
member
In the day where I could only carry .38 spl. I always had a speed loader with .357 mag in my pocket. The .44 mag with Super Vel was the hot ticket though.
1stmarine
Member
I own one. I don't think the power has anything to do with being effective.
I consider firepower, portability, control and overall versatility part of the effectiveness formula.
In terms of effectiveness for law enforcement it will rate very low.
Power of each round will be higher but the overall firepower of a semiautomatic pistol
with 15-18 rounds will be higher than a fully loaded 44 mag and with higher change of connecting with a target in any situation.
Think of it in terms of firepower and speed.
Otherwise why the US secret service, who could have whatever they wanted they
use the 357 SIG and 5.7FN?. Speed with flat shooting and manageable recoil is way more effective in any kind of target.
Less becomes more in the end.
I consider firepower, portability, control and overall versatility part of the effectiveness formula.
In terms of effectiveness for law enforcement it will rate very low.
Power of each round will be higher but the overall firepower of a semiautomatic pistol
with 15-18 rounds will be higher than a fully loaded 44 mag and with higher change of connecting with a target in any situation.
Think of it in terms of firepower and speed.
Otherwise why the US secret service, who could have whatever they wanted they
use the 357 SIG and 5.7FN?. Speed with flat shooting and manageable recoil is way more effective in any kind of target.
Less becomes more in the end.
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DaisyCutter
Member
I qualed and carried a Ruger Redhawk 4.2" stainless revolver, before 44-mags were stricken from the approved firearms list.
Granted, at the time we could qual on 3 guns, and the Redhawk was my 3rd. I rarely ever actually carried it. It was no match for my Glock 22 (at the time), but if I needed to put a bullet into something, the Redhawk would work fine.
IMO a 240 grain slug at about 1000 FPS is an ideal human threat stopper, and well below the upper performance threshhold of a 44 Mag.
Granted, at the time we could qual on 3 guns, and the Redhawk was my 3rd. I rarely ever actually carried it. It was no match for my Glock 22 (at the time), but if I needed to put a bullet into something, the Redhawk would work fine.
IMO a 240 grain slug at about 1000 FPS is an ideal human threat stopper, and well below the upper performance threshhold of a 44 Mag.
Clayguy
Member
Somebody should bring up the issue of noise from a .44 Mag. 6 rds out of that monster and your ears are ringing! I carried a S&W Model 25-5 in .45 Colt for a time (until we went to autos) and felt very comfortable with the ability of the .45 as a "man stopper". This round was a choice I made, with approval from the chief, as a result of a neighboring jurisdiction that had to wrestle a suspect onto a gurney after taking 11 rds from a 9mm. The .45 Colt is not a punishing round and is a pretty good "man stopper". Geez, the .45 worked for The Lone Ranger, Roy Rogers, Gene Autry and John Wayne against a zillion bad guys and indians since the advent of TV, how could I go wrong?
All that said, the bottom line is the ability to put your shots into the "10 ring" under extremely high stress and in a nano second. Poor shot placement makes caliber irrelevant.
All that said, the bottom line is the ability to put your shots into the "10 ring" under extremely high stress and in a nano second. Poor shot placement makes caliber irrelevant.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
6 inch barrel? I don't think power is the problem. Getting in and out of the cruiser all day, or even managing to sit in the seat at all... now there's your problem.
I would also dread being the department PR guy who has to explain after an officer involved shooting why when every other agency in the area is carrying 9s or 40s, your officer just dropped someone using Dirty Harrys gun.
I would also dread being the department PR guy who has to explain after an officer involved shooting why when every other agency in the area is carrying 9s or 40s, your officer just dropped someone using Dirty Harrys gun.
My wife'd god-parents helped raise her and the man was a police officer from the 1940's to the early 1980's and he carried a S&W model 29, no dash with a slicked up trigger job. He actually had to use it in shootings a couple of times taking bad guys out. Long story short his young partner he trained in the late 1960's was my uncle and he ended up with this piece when the officer passed on. My uncle is up in years now and a few years back sold this .44 to me rather than some stranger. My son is a young police officer and I told him he could have it at some point down the road. The original old school cop would be happy I suspect with his god-daughter's son ending up with her sidearm.
Steve Cover
Member
If saddled with a 44 Magnum for law enforcement, I would use 180 JHPs against a potential human adversary.
This would help the over penetration problem of the heavier bullets and loaded in the 1,200 FPS range would be relatively controllable.
The heavy boomers are really for the very experienced not just out of the academy street cops.
I've been shooting 44 Magnums since 1968 and am comfortable with them.
But, a Colt Python is lighter to carry every day and still a reasonably good man stopper if necessary.
The 44 is a hunting round.
My 2 Cents
Steve
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