.44 Magnum Self Defense Loads for a S&W M-29

[Nightcrawler]

That means 100 percent energy transfer.

I suppose, but if the 180 grain load keeps on going, that means it has more energy. It may very well have transferred more into the target (than the .357) as well, and, depending on bullet construction, needn't overpenetrate either. Besides, depending on the scenario, I don't know if giving the target a big messy exit wound to bleed out of counts as "wasted energy".

That's the reason the British loaded their old .455 Webley rounds to less than 700 feet per second, though. The theory was the slow bullet wouldn't overpenetrate and would thusly "transfer" all of its energy.

In any case, the .44 slug will make a bigger hole. A high velocity expanding round makes a bigger "splash" in the target in the same way that thowing a flat rock into a puddle makes a splash (it's not a perfect metaphor as tissue is rather elastic, but bear with me). There's no reason to assume that a properly designed .44 load couldn't transfer more energy than the .357, even if it does overpenetrate. (If not, why bother with .357 at all, when there are 9x19 loads that will expand and stop inside the body?) You've got more momentum, also, which may or may not mean anything. (If it doesn't, though, why on earth do people keep bothering with 230 grain .45ACP loads?)

Personally, I think 1,400 would be a bit on the high side for the 180 grain load I'm imagining. I was just throwing that out there for comparison. I think 1,300 would be nice, which is down into the .357 Magnum's performance envelope. But the .44 bullet of that weight will have poorer sectional density and it'll be thusly a bit easier to make sure it doesn't overpenetrate, given modern bullet design. And, of course, it'd create a bigger wound.

 

[Charles S]

Cocked & Locked,

Great looking carry 44. I really like that gun!

 

[HiWayMan]

Speer offers a short barrel Gold Dot Magnum load. It drives a 200 gr bullet at ~1075 fps out of a 4" tube. More than enough for self defense while still being easy shooting.

Whooppee!!

I get the same velocity out of a 4" barrel with .44 special loading of 8.0grs of Unique. Data from Speer #13 and it isn't even a max load.

 

[Anthony]

Confidence

My reasons for using such heavy caliber sixguns are quite simple.

Confidence

Over the years I have carried and fired a range of pistols and revolvers in a variety of calibers. Further, I have researched the terminal ballistics of many of the popular and not so popular calibers through a variety of sources...this includes the full gamut of ballistic gelatin, street results, hunting, and conversations with other shooters.

Based on the above I have found that, so long as I do my part, I could hit a man sized silhouette target in the chest at 50 yards firing offhand using a tuned Smith & Wesson N-frame revolver with a 4-inch barrel in one of the aforementioned Magnum calibers. No match barrel or special sights...only with the action tuned up by a competent gunsmith. Beyond 50 yards I have not had the proper range facilities to practice until recently, but I feel I could make a BG awfully nervous (at a minimum) out to 100 yards. This is a good thing to have on the flat plains of North Texas.

Combined with my terminal ballistics research it adds up to the kind of confidence I would never trade for anything to know that MY gun in MY hands is capable of should I (God forbid) ever have to use it for real.

Each of us makes a very personal choice in the firearm we carry and the reasons behind it for we know it is an individual choice that we may have to live with should push come to shove.

 

[the naked prophet]

So we want to optimize the performance of the .44 mag with respect to 2-legged critters?

Heavier weights generally penetrate more, and the .44 has plenty of penetration in general, so we'll go with lighter loads. A JHP that will expand violently and largely, holding its diameter (as opposed to folding back like the Gold Dots and XTP do at higher velocities) should be pretty good.

If we say that 12 inches of penetration is optimum (enough to reach the vitals, but even on a thin person would expend most of its energy before exiting) then we've got plenty of room for a super-expanding super-lightweight super-fast round that should be pretty effective, maybe even rifle-like.

Does the glaser penetrate 12 inches in the .44 mag? How about a 135 grain (does anybody make one around this weight?) should do well if it's bonded and strong enough to hold it's diameter. Just a guess.

 

[Anthony]

Actually many of the better designed hollowpoints in the 180 to 210-grain range penetrate in the 12 to 15-inch range when driven to high velocities based on the research I have done. The 175-grain Silvertip in .41 Magnum does 14-inches with boring regularity.

Glaser Silvers probably make the 12-inch minimum, but I doubt the Blue version would.

 

[moxie]

Anthony, this thread has gone all over the place,

and has some interesting points. Having said that, I believe my original post (#4) is still a good direct answer to your specific question.

 

[Anthony]

Moxie Makes a Good Argument

Great points, Moxie.

The Remington 240-grain SJHP wreaked havoc on a rapist shot by a rather petite woman down in Florida in one of Massad Ayoob's more famous "Ayoob Files" installments.

The Federal 240-grain Hydra-Shok is suggested by Federal for self defense purposes in their literature. I've attached a photo of its gelatin performance from Brass Fletcher's website.

 

[cookekdjr]

CCI Blazers in .44 Special. 200gr gold dot @ 875 fps, I believe. Very soft shooting but should be very effective. Quite accurate in my Ruger Redhawk.
-David

 

[Charles S]

CCI Blazers in .44 Special. 200gr gold dot @ 875 fps, I believe. Very soft shooting but should be very effective.

That is my indoor load of choice in my 29. Very accurate, no huge flash or concussion. Great load.

 

[Deanimator]

CCI Blazers in .44 Special. 200gr gold dot @ 875 fps, I believe. Very soft shooting but should be very effective. Quite accurate in my Ruger Redhawk.
-David

I have a box of these for my 4" Model 29-2. I also have a box of the Federals, which are essentially the .44 Special version of the .38 Special "FBI" load. They use a 200gr. lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint.

 

[az2ak]

over penetration on bad guys

Tucson Pd had one in which a second officer was killed by his partner 38/158 swc involved. NYPD has had severel. Google em, I have read these stats years ago.
One overpenetration shot hitting an innocent, I know about personally, as it involved a friends father happened years ago:
Smitty, a Yavapia County, AZ, Deputy, was hit by a 230HB/45 ACP that had traveled through a felon's torso. His partner Manny, had done a speed rock and double tap into the body of a felon that had just slashed him with a butcher Knife. When Manny shot, he did not see Smitty come up behind his attacker. Luckily, the bullet hit the edge of his second chance vest , penetrated just under the skin and exited the bottom of his slight overhanging gut. He was back to duty in a week. This shooting was writen up by Chuck Taylor, circa 1980 in SWAT magazine. The shooting happened in a narrow trailer in Prescott Valley AZ. Over penetration is a reality to be taken into consideration, with whatever gun one is using.
There are probably more .44 mags carried for self defence here in Alaska than anywhere else, most have heavy penetrator bear loads them. Not the best bet for anti personel use, but that is what gets carried.
I carry mid range/ .44 special handloads in my .44s most of the time.
Ayoob has written about THAT issue too, and dispells the myth surrounding handloads vs facory loads for defense in his classes.
All the Best,
Rob

 

[Anthony]

Yes, Mas has written about this as well.

He warned me about this personally as I mentioned in post #10 of this thread.

To me though there is a wide enough range of loads in the .44 Magnum to cover shallow to deep penetration scenarios. A happy medium can be had with careful load selection.

 

[ATW525]

Whooppee!!

I get the same velocity out of a 4" barrel with .44 special loading of 8.0grs of Unique. Data from Speer #13 and it isn't even a max load.

Speer #13 is not accurate for the current production 200gr GDHP in .44 caliber. They replaced the #4425 bullet with the #4427, and that loading is beyond the published maximums for the new bullet according to Speer's supplemental reloading data.

 

[Correia]

Once upon a time, there was a group of gun nuts standing around the counter at the coolest gunstore in the universe. Said gun nuts had just returned from a place where CCW was not illegal, but was strictly frowned upon. These gunnuts had been in this place for many long hours with no one seeing their weapons.

The ruggedly handsome individual that owned this gunstore threw out a challenge. He lifted up his shirt and exposed his 14 shot .45 1911. He said "I bet I carried the most gun today! Let's see them suckers!"

All of the other gun nuts at this super awesome gunstore then exposed their guns. One of the new guys was unarmed. (newbie!). The next newest had a .380. Two of the longer serving Minions showed their SP101 .357 and a the other, a nice customized 1911. The other gunstore owner had a Beretta 92.

But then the mighty Nightcrawler pulled back his shirt, and lo, there was a 5" 629 .44 magnum +5 of Ultimate Righteousness. He said unto the other minions "BEHOLD THE AWESOME". And it was so.

Until the good looking gunstore owner (did I mention he was good looking? I mean chicks totally dig this guy) said, "what load you got in there?"

".44 Specials." Nightcrawler answered with shame.

"You're such a girl."

And then it came to pass that we ordered pizza.

 

[Nightcrawler]

*sigh* Thanks, Larry.

I want to try 210 grain silvertips, but for the life of me I can't find them around here.

 

[Confederate]

Until the good looking gunstore owner (did I mention he was good looking? I mean chicks totally dig this guy) said, "what load you got in there?"

Wait until they find out it's just a pistol!

In any case, the .44 slug will make a bigger hole. A high velocity expanding round makes a bigger "splash" in the target in the same way that thowing a flat rock into a puddle makes a splash (it's not a perfect metaphor as tissue is rather elastic, but bear with me). There's no reason to assume that a properly designed .44 load couldn't transfer more energy than the .357, even if it does overpenetrate.

I suppose. As stated by others, the only problem would be the still considerable energy behind the now expanded slug. As it exits, the energy probably would still be more than adequate to penetrate a car window and take out another person. I'm not sure I'd want that kind of uncontrolled power. Hitting and paralyzing or killing an innocent person would be worse (in my book) than just killing or injuring a bad guy. The latter I could live with. The former would make my life hell for the rest of my life. Kill a mother or father and you've really got problems: moral and legal.

Even so, I'm willing to let someone make that determination if they know the ramifications. I'm quite confident in the .357 mag or .45 stoked, of course, with the right ammo. That's my only concern.

 

[C-grunt]

BrassFetcher.com JE223 tests a 180grn XTP that ran 1571 FPS out of a 4" barrel. Penetrated to 12.6" and expanded to almost .75 cal. I think that would be an awesome SD round.

 

[zeke]

keep 180 grain xtps loaded to 1250-1270 fps (from 4 in ) for the 44 mags owned. Rem 180 sjhp is the less expensive version. Right on the edge of controllibility, with minimum muzzle flash and "boom". If ya want a manly hotter load, Rem 180 grain sjsp might be for you. 1900 fps from 7 1/2 barrel. Am not inclned to have the heavy weight bullets for defense, unless talking wild big critters.

 

[wcwhitey]

I have nothing to add to the .44 for self defense string. I just wanted to chime in and tell Cocked & Locked that that is one SWEET looking revolver, nice photo too!

 

[Leanwolf]

"Your 41 mag was also an excellent choice, one of my favorites."


When I lived in Los Angeles, I knew a Homicide detective who worked for a P.D. in a smaller city adjacent to L.A. proper. This city was well known as a very rough city, with many very rough "bad guys."


The detective carried a S&W 57 .41 Magnum with 4" barrel. He got into a shooting with a murder suspect he tried to arrest and killed him with one round, C.O.M. Factory Remington 210 grains JHP ammo. He liked the .41 Magnum.

(So do I! )

FWIW.

L.W.

 

[vanilla_gorilla]

For a short while, I sported the 210 grain SilverTips in my four inch 629. Water showed penetration was not a concern, though expansion was not a given. (I know, I know. Water doesn't necessarily prove anything) Recoil was not anywhere near as harsh as some other loads (ahem! Remington 180 grain)

I've since turned to the 200 grain Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel. Recoil is less, and expansion has not been anything to worry about with those bullets shaped suspiciously like a flying Dixie cup. I look forward to putting one into a deer next season. So far, I'm sold on them.

Then again, I don't rely on "energy transfer." I rely on tissue disruption, and permanent crush cavity. A 240 grain soft point at 1300fps that doesn't expand and expends itself into a wall on the other side of the "test subject" is no better than a lighter bullet at slower speeds that does not over penetrate and does expand. The lighter load also usually provides for quicker follow-up shots.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

I don't know that overpenetration should be a huge concern for a citizen's CCW. Police are as likely to get into a shootout while in the company of other officers, or around civilians, thus making collateral damage an issue; on the other hand, I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of situations in which a normal citizen is justified in using lethal force are situations in which (s)he is alone, and thus an easier target. If you have a concern about a load going through the exterior walls of a house or apartment, then you should avoid said load, but I'd venture to say that you are otherwise okay.

 

[thales]

*


Federal makes a .44 Mag 180gr jacketed hollowpoint that they claim makes 1500fps. That seems about in the ballpark to me. You could probably improve that with handloads. 12-13" of penetration is certainly not excessive.


*

 

[Nightcrawler]

1500fps? Hoo, that's gonna thump on both ends.

I'd prefer a good (Gold Dot, maybe?) JHP in the 180 grain range doing about 1,325 from a 5" barrel. Standard .41 Mag does that velocity with a 210 grain bullet, and I didn't find that offensive (recoil wise) out of my former 6" Model 57.