Scipio Africanus
Member
What CraigC said, both times 
I own both, load for both, shoot both, like both, trust both.
I can't pick one over the other
I own both, load for both, shoot both, like both, trust both.
I can't pick one over the other
44 Magnum v 45 Long Colt
- Thread starter el Godfather
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If you get a hold of some old .454 loading guidelines from Freedom Arms, in the old days, they weren't shy. They had the strongest revolvers made, with the best materials, and took advantage of rifle like pressures in a handgun.
The absolute max for my Seville was 345-360 grain bullet at 1550 fps. Look at the loading tables, using H110, and you can guess at the grains. I could tell you, but if you used it, you'd probably blow yourself up.
Worked for 38" of penetration, 5 times, on a cape buffalo, Ross Seyfried doing the shooting. Recoil was so harsh it knocked the gun out of time, and you had to put it back with your finger before the next shot.
Linebaugh called it a built in safety feature. I thought it was a good way to get yourself killed.
Lion hunt cape buffalo. If you manage to get yourself in a pride of hunting lions, and they change to you being the target, I don't think it's as easy hitting a 400-500 pound cat, moving at 50 miles an hour that can jump.
That vs. 1500 pounds of horns and hoofs, coming at 25 miles an hour. Seyfried put 5 shots into the buffalo, in 2 seconds, and the buffalo skidded to a stop pretty much at his nose.
If that was a lion, he MIGHT have got off two shots. They better be REAL good.
The absolute max for my Seville was 345-360 grain bullet at 1550 fps. Look at the loading tables, using H110, and you can guess at the grains. I could tell you, but if you used it, you'd probably blow yourself up.
Worked for 38" of penetration, 5 times, on a cape buffalo, Ross Seyfried doing the shooting. Recoil was so harsh it knocked the gun out of time, and you had to put it back with your finger before the next shot.
Linebaugh called it a built in safety feature. I thought it was a good way to get yourself killed.
Lion hunt cape buffalo. If you manage to get yourself in a pride of hunting lions, and they change to you being the target, I don't think it's as easy hitting a 400-500 pound cat, moving at 50 miles an hour that can jump.
That vs. 1500 pounds of horns and hoofs, coming at 25 miles an hour. Seyfried put 5 shots into the buffalo, in 2 seconds, and the buffalo skidded to a stop pretty much at his nose.
If that was a lion, he MIGHT have got off two shots. They better be REAL good.
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Sport45
Member
I haven't tried it, but I've read the standard 6-shot Redhawk is good for 50,000 psi in .45 Colt.
The 30,000 psi loads are plenty for me...
The 30,000 psi loads are plenty for me...
Barr
Member
If it comes to the point I need more than a .44 Magnum or .45 LC can offer, its time to either grab a lever carbine in one of the two or get a .30 caliber rifle.
MCgunner
Member
It really depends on the gun. From my Blackhawk in .45LC, I don't load it up to what some say is its limit in that gun and even if I did, there are some WAY hot heavy bullet .44 mags out there. From a Freedom Arms revolver, I'd load the colt well past what I load it in my Blackhawk and it'd leave the .44 loads behind in that gun and still do it at lower pressures.
I can say, .45 Colt is plenty. I don't need more, not here in Texas for what I hunt. Actually, I've never shot anything other than a few trapped hogs with my .45 Colt and that was with a 255 grain cast FP at 950 fps. I've killed hogs and deer with my .357 Blackhawk, all I REALLY "need". The deer are sorta small here, you must understand, and hogs are normally shot out to 50 yards, my longest being 60 with the .357.
I can say, .45 Colt is plenty. I don't need more, not here in Texas for what I hunt. Actually, I've never shot anything other than a few trapped hogs with my .45 Colt and that was with a 255 grain cast FP at 950 fps. I've killed hogs and deer with my .357 Blackhawk, all I REALLY "need".
The deer are sorta small here, you must understand, and hogs are normally shot out to 50 yards, my longest being 60 with the .357.One_Jackal
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Another thing the 44 mag has in it's favor is availability. Numerous times I have left my ammo at home and some airlines don't want ammo on their planes. I can always find 44mag ammo, even at country stores.
MCgunner
Member
I've flown twice in my life and that didn't concern handgun hunting. Ammo availability is of no concern to me as I make my own and Midway has components for many calibers. YMMV and probably does.
Coal Dragger
member
Prosser,
I've loaded and fired 360gr bullets in my FA at what loading guide says should be around 1350-1400fps and they are on the energetic side. Although manageable, I can just imagine how much "fun" they would be at 1550fps. By fun I mean unpleasant and generally nasty to hang on to, much less try to focus on good marksmanship while knowing the revolver will do everything it can to hit you in the face as a reward for touching the round off.
At the power range I am loading them in the 360gr bullet should probably still flatten anything I care to shoot at on this continent, so my motivation level to go any higher is pretty low. I was surprised that the bullet gives good accuracy, even though FA states that the twist rate for their .452" barrels are really optimized for 240-335gr bullets. I noticed improved accuracy with these as velocities increased, was that also your experience at 1550fps?
I've loaded and fired 360gr bullets in my FA at what loading guide says should be around 1350-1400fps and they are on the energetic side. Although manageable, I can just imagine how much "fun" they would be at 1550fps. By fun I mean unpleasant and generally nasty to hang on to, much less try to focus on good marksmanship while knowing the revolver will do everything it can to hit you in the face as a reward for touching the round off.
At the power range I am loading them in the 360gr bullet should probably still flatten anything I care to shoot at on this continent, so my motivation level to go any higher is pretty low. I was surprised that the bullet gives good accuracy, even though FA states that the twist rate for their .452" barrels are really optimized for 240-335gr bullets. I noticed improved accuracy with these as velocities increased, was that also your experience at 1550fps?
Bobson
Member
I've always read that it depends.
If you reload, 45LC can be loaded to be "more powerful" than 44 Mag; but if you're comparing factory loads only, 44 Mag typically packs more punch.
If you reload, 45LC can be loaded to be "more powerful" than 44 Mag; but if you're comparing factory loads only, 44 Mag typically packs more punch.
"Prosser,
I've loaded and fired 360gr bullets in my FA at what loading guide says should be around 1350-1400fps and they are on the energetic side. Although manageable, I can just imagine how much "fun" they would be at 1550fps. By fun I mean unpleasant and generally nasty to hang on to, much less try to focus on good marksmanship while knowing the revolver will do everything it can to hit you in the face as a reward for touching the round off.
At the power range I am loading them in the 360gr bullet should probably still flatten anything I care to shoot at on this continent, so my motivation level to go any higher is pretty low. I was surprised that the bullet gives good accuracy, even though FA states that the twist rate for their .452" barrels are really optimized for 240-335gr bullets. I noticed improved accuracy with these as velocities increased, was that also your experience at 1550fps?"
I got 12 rounds of Seyfried buffalo rounds sent to me by John Linebaugh.
I found that at that level of recoil, the grips had to be custom tailored to my hands, though at the time I didn't know this. Accurate? An elephant would have been safe with those loads at 7 yards, with the small SA grips on my Seville. I never have shot anywhere near what Seyfried is capable of.
The Hawaii pig guys settled on 1350 fps, with a 325 grain bullet. Shot a lot of these, and, never did figure out I needed custom grips. Jack Huntington finally just made me a set of grips, and it made all the difference in the world on the seville.
When I bought the .500 Max and .475 FA 83, they had grips for small hands.
At that level of recoil I was lucky to hit the backstop, much less a target, with the little grips the guns had on them. Here is a before picture of the .475 and .500:
Problem is the grips on the guns are REALLY nice. Micarta on the FA, Buffalo Horn on the .500
I had them changed to grips sized for my hands:
And they are as easy to shoot as the Seville was, except for the .500 MAX.
525 grain bullets over 1350 fps are a whole other ball game.
To tie this to the thread reasoning:
Both calibers really require custom grips, fitted to you hand size for anyone to evaulate how accurate they are.
To answer your original question:
Logically the fuller the case, the more consistent combustion, and velocity is going to be, and, that means accuracy. That is one problem with loading for low recoil, at the bottom of the pressure scale. With a big case, it's better to have it 95% full. The lower the number, the more the velocity variation.
I can't speak to .454 or heavy Colt loads in an FA, since I've never had a FA 83 that wasn't converted to another caliber. The original Casull loads were for lighter bullets.
The Sevilles by Linebaugh were designed to shoot heavier bullets. At the time my gun was VERY accurate, but, I never shot enough 360's to speculate on twist. My gun shot heavy bullets VERY well. I do remember he mentioned he had the right twist for the caliber, and his guns would consistently shoot into 2-3 inches at 100 yards, with a variety of bullets.
I think he went over that in his letters to me, but I'm not up for going back and looking right now.
Jack Huntington pointed out to me that big bullets tend to smooth out a lot of the accuracy problems in 5 guns by just being long. They tend to get ducks in a row, and heavy for caliber bullets tend to be more accurate then
light for caliber bullets, and, if the gun has an accuracy flaw, the heavier bullets tend to show it less then light bullets.
The bigger the case, the more recoil you are going to get. That is the trade off with the .44 and .45. When you really get down to it, a .44 Special
is probably the .308 of big handgun rounds.
I've loaded and fired 360gr bullets in my FA at what loading guide says should be around 1350-1400fps and they are on the energetic side. Although manageable, I can just imagine how much "fun" they would be at 1550fps. By fun I mean unpleasant and generally nasty to hang on to, much less try to focus on good marksmanship while knowing the revolver will do everything it can to hit you in the face as a reward for touching the round off.
At the power range I am loading them in the 360gr bullet should probably still flatten anything I care to shoot at on this continent, so my motivation level to go any higher is pretty low. I was surprised that the bullet gives good accuracy, even though FA states that the twist rate for their .452" barrels are really optimized for 240-335gr bullets. I noticed improved accuracy with these as velocities increased, was that also your experience at 1550fps?"
I got 12 rounds of Seyfried buffalo rounds sent to me by John Linebaugh.
I found that at that level of recoil, the grips had to be custom tailored to my hands, though at the time I didn't know this. Accurate? An elephant would have been safe with those loads at 7 yards, with the small SA grips on my Seville. I never have shot anywhere near what Seyfried is capable of.
The Hawaii pig guys settled on 1350 fps, with a 325 grain bullet. Shot a lot of these, and, never did figure out I needed custom grips. Jack Huntington finally just made me a set of grips, and it made all the difference in the world on the seville.
When I bought the .500 Max and .475 FA 83, they had grips for small hands.
At that level of recoil I was lucky to hit the backstop, much less a target, with the little grips the guns had on them. Here is a before picture of the .475 and .500:
Problem is the grips on the guns are REALLY nice. Micarta on the FA, Buffalo Horn on the .500
I had them changed to grips sized for my hands:
And they are as easy to shoot as the Seville was, except for the .500 MAX.
525 grain bullets over 1350 fps are a whole other ball game.
To tie this to the thread reasoning:
Both calibers really require custom grips, fitted to you hand size for anyone to evaulate how accurate they are.
To answer your original question:
Logically the fuller the case, the more consistent combustion, and velocity is going to be, and, that means accuracy. That is one problem with loading for low recoil, at the bottom of the pressure scale. With a big case, it's better to have it 95% full. The lower the number, the more the velocity variation.
I can't speak to .454 or heavy Colt loads in an FA, since I've never had a FA 83 that wasn't converted to another caliber. The original Casull loads were for lighter bullets.
The Sevilles by Linebaugh were designed to shoot heavier bullets. At the time my gun was VERY accurate, but, I never shot enough 360's to speculate on twist. My gun shot heavy bullets VERY well. I do remember he mentioned he had the right twist for the caliber, and his guns would consistently shoot into 2-3 inches at 100 yards, with a variety of bullets.
I think he went over that in his letters to me, but I'm not up for going back and looking right now.
Jack Huntington pointed out to me that big bullets tend to smooth out a lot of the accuracy problems in 5 guns by just being long. They tend to get ducks in a row, and heavy for caliber bullets tend to be more accurate then
light for caliber bullets, and, if the gun has an accuracy flaw, the heavier bullets tend to show it less then light bullets.
The bigger the case, the more recoil you are going to get. That is the trade off with the .44 and .45. When you really get down to it, a .44 Special
is probably the .308 of big handgun rounds.
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.45LC is just a cool cartridge with great history. For how old the round is, it's still very relevant today for plinking on up to hunting and even self defense. The .44 Mag is a beast, but can be loaded down like any cartridge or use 44spls. If you are going to buy factory.. go .44 for sure. If you are looking to pick one and stick with it.. think about future purchases.. will you be getting a double-action, single-action, lever, carbine? I've tried to limit the cartridges I reload for.. but in the end I buy guns for the art they are and how they perform for a given task.
Zaydok Allen
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I was faced with this same issue several years ago. My solution was to buy a 460. That way I can varry my power levels from 45 cowboy loads all the way up to nuclear moose killer levels, and all with factory ammo.
I don't yet reload, so once I do, I suspect that my love for the .45 will grow.
I don't yet reload, so once I do, I suspect that my love for the .45 will grow.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Which is virtually the same situation as the .45 Colt -- if you want higher velocity for your Ruger, buy specialty rounds or handload.
BCRider
Member
460Kodiak said:
Once you see how many more rounds you can load per buck than you can buy off the shelf your love of the big "4somethings" will grow a lot faster and far more than you can suspect....
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