.44 Special or .455 Webley?

[nvcdl]

I have an unmolested 2nd Version S&W hand ejector in .455 webley and a .455 Triplelock that had the breachface (?) shaved so it could shoot 45 colt. In addition I have a Triplelock, & a 2nd & 3rd version Hand ejectors in 44 Special.

Never reloaded for the .455 as I've picked up a bunch of Fiocchi ammo. The 44 is easy to reload - I picked up a bunch of 240gr 44 lead bullets on a local gunboard that are on the soft side - they work well in the special.

 

[Sarge7402]

If both are in Colt nee service or s&w new century I'd go for the.455 webley then ream out the chambers to accept the .45 Colt cartridge

 

[mcb]

If both are in Colt nee service or s&w new century I'd go for the.455 webley then ream out the chambers to accept the .45 Colt cartridge

Don't do that to a lovely 455 Webley, sell it to someone that would love it for what it is and get yourself a factory 45 Colt in the same frame. Probably cheaper in the long run. 455 Webleys in any frame are getting hard to find, you don't need to be bastardizing them by jamming a 45 Colt reamer in there.

 

[Onty]

I have an unmolested 2nd Version S&W hand ejector in .455 webley and a .455 Triplelock that had the breachface (?) shaved so it could shoot 45 colt.

Something isn't adding up! In order to shoot 45 Colt from any .455, shaving back of the cylinder isn't enough, although I had seen that space between back of the cylinder and recoil plate on some war time .455 Webley Mk VI revolvers is large enough to accept .060" thick rim. The chamber in any .455 (or .450) revolver is not deep enough to accept loaded 45 Colt round. In that respect, mcb is correct.

 

[nvcdl]

Something isn't adding up! In order to shoot 45 Colt from any .455, shaving back of the cylinder isn't enough, although I had seen that space between back of the cylinder and recoil plate on some war time .455 Webley Mk VI revolvers is large enough to accept .060" thick rim. The chamber in any .455 (or .450) revolver is not deep enough to accept loaded 45 Colt round. In that respect, mcb is correct.

They may have also bored out the cylinder - all I know is it will chamber and shoot 45 LC.

 

[StrawHat]

Here is my New Century 455 that was converted to fire the 45 long Colt cartridge. Not a very good conversion! I have considered finishing the conversion to the .470 Achilles but do not believe there is enough barrel to go out to 47 caliber.



Kevin

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Don't do that to a lovely 455 Webley, sell it to someone that would love it for what it is and get yourself a factory 45 Colt in the same frame. Probably cheaper in the long run. 455 Webleys in any frame are getting hard to find, you don't need to be bastardizing them by jamming a 45 Colt reamer in there.

If the .45ACP is above pressure for the Webley, wouldn't .45colt also put a strain on things?

 

[mcb]

If the .45ACP is above pressure for the Webley, wouldn't .45colt also put a strain on things?

Using CIP data since 455 Webley does not have a SAAMI spec.

455 Webley: 13,000 psi
45 Colt 15,900 psi
45 ACP: 19,000 psi

But both the Colt and S&W solid frame revolvers were offered from the factory in 45 ACP and 45 Colt, thus 455 Webley versions would likely weather the conversation just fine. The top break Webleys do not tolerate the conversion to higher pressure cartridges due to their design and materials used.

But my objection is more about reducing the number of 455 Webley revolvers in existence. No one is making new revolvers in that cartridge. Revolvers in the other two cartridge are being made currently.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Using CIP data since 455 Webley does not have a SAAMI spec.

455 Webley: 13,000 psi
45 Colt 15,900 psi
45 ACP: 19,000 psi

But both the Colt and S&W solid frame revolvers were offered from the factory in 45 ACP and 45 Colt, thus 455 Webley versions would likely weather the conversation just fine. The top break Webleys do not tolerate the conversion to higher pressure cartridges due to their design and materials used.

But my objection is more about reducing the number of 455 Webley revolvers in existence. No one is making new revolvers in that cartridge. Revolvers in the other two cartridge are being made currently.

That's what I thought, was not sure if people were talking about the Colts and S&W's being converted from .455 to .45colt, or a Webley Revolver. The Webley cylinder is very short, so that didn't make sense. I have heard of using modified .45 Colt brass in a Webley. Okay, I got it straight now.

I understand the objection to modifying the Webley, even though I don't mind if mine is. It was affordable, and I understood before hand that it was a reloading proposition, not a "buy a box of .45ACP and blast away" thing. The world would be a better place had none ever been shaved, but I love mine just the way it is.

 

[StrawHat]

Using CIP data since 455 Webley does not have a SAAMI spec.

455 Webley: 13,000 psi
45 Colt 15,900 psi
45 ACP: 19,000 psi

But both the Colt and S&W solid frame revolvers were offered from the factory in 45 ACP and 45 Colt, thus 455 Webley versions would likely weather the conversation just fine. The top break Webleys do not tolerate the conversion to higher pressure cartridges due to their design and materials used.

But my objection is more about reducing the number of 455 Webley revolvers in existence. No one is making new revolvers in that cartridge. Revolvers in the other two cartridge are being made currently.

I can not speak to the Colt revolvers but S&W did not start heat treating cylinders until after the contract with Britain ended. The 455 cylinder are whatever steel was used with no further treatment. The ACP runs above proof loads for the Wesley. The long Colt cartridge is below proof.

Reality is, both conversions were done to sell these revolvers to a market that wanted something cheap and easy to shoot. No one knew much about the 455 but the ACP and Colt cartridge were known and ammunition was available. Ammunition was also available for the Wesley but, again, not a well know cartridge.

Kevin

 

[Onty]

Using CIP data since 455 Webley does not have a SAAMI spec.

455 Webley: 13,000 psi
45 Colt 15,900 psi

We need few clarifications here. I had same issue with some published data.
As per stamp on Webley revolvers, max. pressure is "6 TONS PER □":

According to https://www.britannica.com/science/ton , "British Ton" is a "Long" one, and is 2240 pounds. In that respect, "6 TONS PER □" equals 13440 PSI, here is conversion https://www.unitconverters.net/pressure/ton-force-long-square-inch-to-psi.htm .

Regarding 45 Colt pressure, according to latest SAAMI specification max. average pressure is 14000 psi:

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/SAAMI-Z299.3-2022-Centerfire-Pistol-Revolver-Approved-12-13-2022.pdf

In essence, the difference in pressure between .455 Webley and 45 Colt is just 560 psi. Despite, I agree with others that there is no point of converting .455 Webley to 45 Colt. If there is no significant collectors' value, I would rather go to 45 Schofield. That brass is available from Starline https://www.starlinebrass.com/45-sw-schofield-brass , and as a bonus, it has larger rim dia than 45 Colt. But, again, I wouldn't shave cylinder. Rim thinning is an easy modification.

 

[Onty]

Here is my New Century 455 that was converted to fire the 45 long Colt cartridge. Not a very good conversion! I have considered finishing the conversion to the .470 Achilles but do not believe there is enough barrel to go out to 47 caliber.

View attachment 1186774

Kevin

It is sad to see how some old firearms are butchered! If I am in your shoes, I will look for another cylinder.

 

[mcb]

We need few clarifications here. I had same issue with some published data.
As per stamp on Webley revolvers, max. pressure is "6 TONS PER □":

According to https://www.britannica.com/science/ton , "British Ton" is a "Long" one, and is 2240 pounds. In that respect, "6 TONS PER □" equals 13440 PSI, here is conversion https://www.unitconverters.net/pressure/ton-force-long-square-inch-to-psi.htm .

Regarding 45 Colt pressure, according to latest SAAMI specification max. average pressure is 14000 psi:

View attachment 1186878

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/SAAMI-Z299.3-2022-Centerfire-Pistol-Revolver-Approved-12-13-2022.pdf

In essence, the difference in pressure between .455 Webley and 45 Colt is just 560 psi. Despite, I agree with others that there is no point of converting .455 Webley to 45 Colt. If there is no significant collectors' value, I would rather go to 45 Schofield. That brass is available from Starline https://www.starlinebrass.com/45-sw-schofield-brass , and as a bonus, it has larger rim dia than 45 Colt. But, again, I wouldn't shave cylinder. Rim thinning is an easy modification.

The reason I used the modern CIP specifications in my post to compare the cartridges is because those are the only measurements we have that are directly comparable using the same modern method. The 6 tons per square on the side of the Webley used a method of measuring pressure similar to the SAAMI crusher method but done using the bolt thrust of the cartridge to crush a holed copper slug. This method though consistent to itself has even more errors in it than the SAAMI crusher method at actually predicting actual chamber pressure. The modern transducer methods are much more accurate but comparing SAAMI transducer to CIP transducer though much more comparable and accurate it still has errors and is still better to use all the same method. Hence using CIP since all three cartridges exist in that modern spec and not in SAAMI.

 

[mcb]

It is sad to see how some old firearms are butchered! If I am in your shoes, I will look for another cylinder.

When Colt first started making 45 ACP revolvers for the great war they where short in chamber reamers. So some of the early 1917s got straight thru chambers. If you loaded it with 45 ACP without the moonclip the round would fall clear through the cylinder. Not ideal but far from a safety issue.

 

[nvcdl]

I don't worry about shooting 45LC in a triplelock. The revolver was designed to shoot 44Special.

 

[StrawHat]

It is sad to see how some old firearms are butchered! If I am in your shoes, I will look for another cylinder.

Already have one and it is being fitted to the revolver before sending it out to be chambered for the 45 S&W Special cartridge. In 1906, the Army was looking for a replacement for the puny 38 Service cartridge. S&W supplied New Century revolvers for the trials. They were chambered for the 45 S&W Special. There are two (2) known survivors of the trials. I can not afford either of them so I opted to pay homage by creating a replica.

It can not be a perfect copy, but, it will be as close as I can create.

Kevin

 

[StrawHat]

When Colt first started making 45 ACP revolvers for the great war they were short in chamber reamers. So some of the early 1917s got straight thru chambers. If you loaded it with 45 ACP without the moonclip the round would fall clear through the cylinder. Not ideal but far from a safety issue.

????

Colt had the monoploly on the 1911. How were they short on reamers? They did not even think of producing a revolver so chambered until approached by the Army. Without the 1/2 moon clip, patented by S&W, they would not have considered making a 45 ACP revolver. Colt had wisely doubled down on the 1911 but was unable to meet production needed.

Kevin

 

[mcb]

????

Colt had the monoploly on the 1911. How were they short on reamers? They did not even think of producing a revolver so chambered until approached by the Army. Without the 1/2 moon clip, patented by S&W, they would not have considered making a 45 ACP revolver. Colt had wisely doubled down on the 1911 but was unable to meet production needed.

Kevin

The 45 ACP reamer for a revolver uses a larger pilot than the reamer for a semi-auto. With the revolver the pilot is the larger throat diameter (groove diameter or a hair bigger depending on who is doing it,) with a semi-auto it has to be smaller to fit the land diameter of the riflings. They where not using reamers with replaceable pilots in 1917. They had to have revolver specific reamers made.

 

[StrawHat]

The 45 ACP reamer for a revolver uses a larger pilot than the reamer for a semi-auto. With the revolver the pilot is the larger throat diameter (groove diameter or a hair bigger depending on who is doing it,) with a semi-auto it has to be smaller to fit the land diameter of the riflings. They where not using reamers with replaceable pilots in 1917. They had to have revolver specific reamers made.

Thank you. I was not aware of that.

Kevin

 

[Onty]

On top of above, if revolver is Webley, in that case chamber exit hole is .447-.450". This was purposely done because .455 Webley Mk I (longer) was initially black powder round. Since black powder charge couldn't develop sufficient pressure in it, solution was shooting .455 dia bullet through .447-.450" cylinder chamber. As we all know, having noted dia bullet entering .451-.452" barrel isn't recipe for accuracy. To overcome that problem, Brits made hollow base bullet, using soft lead. It might sound strange, but actually it worked very well. Top scores at Bisley competition were attest to their design.

As for chamber holes on .455" S&W and Colt, I have no information. Hopefully others, who have those revolvers, could chime in.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

On top of above, if revolver is Webley, in that case chamber exit hole is .447-.450". This was purposely done because .455 Webley Mk I (longer) was initially black powder round. Since black powder charge couldn't develop sufficient pressure in it, solution was shooting .455 dia bullet through .447-.450" cylinder chamber. As we all know, having noted dia bullet entering .451-.452" barrel isn't recipe for accuracy. To overcome that problem, Brits made hollow base bullet, using soft lead. It might sound strange, but actually it worked very well. Top scores at Bisley competition were attest to their design.

As for chamber holes on .455" S&W and Colt, I have no information. Hopefully others, who have those revolvers, could chime in.

Indeed, my Webley shoots very well, with the replica Webley bullet. The chamber/cylinder is also throated "differently", it doesn't have the "stepped" chamber as most revolvers do. Actually, it shoots okay with normal, .452" 256 grain semi-wadcutters and .452" Round nose 250 grain .45Colt bullets. But best accuracy is with the Webley bullets for sure.