.44 Special or .455 Webley?

.44 or .455?

  • .44 Spl

    Votes: 38 88.4%
  • .455 Webley

    Votes: 5 11.6%

  • Total voters
    43
If the gun was a Webley, then .455 for sure. I have 44 Specials from S&W and Ruger.

If a Colt, then 44 Special and I’d put up with the backwards cylinder release.

I reload so as long as components are available, ammunition is not an issue.
 
44 special. Saw a Smith & Wesson on this very forum a couple days ago. Can't remember the model number but it looks fantastic! Bet it makes a very good self defense round.
 
A big old .43-44-45 caliber lead bullet loping along at 700-800-900fps is a force to be reckoned with.

I don’t want to get hit with any of them, I’d have to reload for all of them, and I’d want them chambered in something modern that I could load at any power level to take maximum advantage of the fact that I’m reloading and can tailor my loads for the application. All would be good for hunting and stopping a threat from man or beast.

I think I’d choose .44 special pragmatically because it’s perhaps the most versatile of them all in terms of its brass. .455 is a stubby case that might not give me as much loading versatility. .44spl can be loaded almost up to .44 magnum levels. .44-40 is basically the same diameter as .44spl but it’s got a thinner neck that’s great for black powder sealing but seems needlessly delicate for smokeless.
 
My only New Service is a .38-40. I have tons of brass and would easily choose it over the .455 as well.

IMG_0357b.jpg
 
If I have to chose between 44 Special and 455 Webley, from practical point, 44 Special all the way. And this is from "dyed in the wool" Webley fan.

Let's make it clear, I just love Webley revolvers, but due all kind of issues, .455 ammo is bit of nuisance. First, if revolver is in original condition, right bullet is the one with hollow base:

455-265-HB.JPG

The one I have is 455 Webley (Mk2), HB, 4 cavity mold, https://www.mp-molds.com/product/455-webley-mk2-hollow-base-4-cavity-mold/ . RCBS use to make single cavity mold, but as far as I know, not anymore.

Now, .455 bras is the issue. Starline makes it, but only shorter Mk II:

455-mk11-web-t.png
https://www.starlinebrass.com/455-webley-mkii

Why they don't make longer Mk I, is beyond me. However, Starline makes 45 Cowboy Special, same length as longer .455 Mk I brass:

cowboy-45-spl-web-t.png
https://www.starlinebrass.com/45-cowboy-special

I have this brass also. However, the rim thickness must be reduced to less than .040". Some folks use lathe. It could be done, but I found that far better method is making a special die and squeezing the rim in solid machine vise or small hydraulic press. Here is the die:

F4FosuB.jpg


I have this one also.

On the end, I said "what if" Webley takes 45 Schofield case (have those also), as some I had did. In that case, I will trim bullet mold (it will make about 250 grains bullet), use load data for 45 Schofield, and have the best combination of .455 revolver and ammo for it:

BDEebBk.jpg


W1GexyT.jpg


Just waiting for a nice .455 revolver. I wish it will be Webley WG with birdhead grip:

WG - Copy.jpg

But standard square grip will do it, especially if it is Target Model with 7.5" barrel:

WG-3 - Copy.jpg

Sorry S&W, Colt, Ruger, FA, etc., fans, but IMHO opinion, nothing matches elegance, ergonomics and handling of Webley WG. Take one in your hand, and you will know what I am talking about.

And last, but not the least, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
 
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I have bought 44 Special off the self for my 44 mags.
I would actually prefer the Colt New Service in 45 colt, but it wasn't a choice....
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have commented with a different cartridge. I didn't want to start that debate. The 455 would be cool if you can get ammo.
 
I have to admit, the .455 exists in a black hole in my brain. I know very little about it and by that I mean nothing. Like the .38 and .44Colt heeled bullet debacle, it always sounded like more trouble than it was worth. What barrels did Colt use on their .455's? Was it the same as .45Colt and ACP? Weren't a lot of them converted?
 
I'm thankful I can make all my own ammo, regardless of caliber, and never have to consider "availability". Not to mention paying the $$$ for commercially produced ammo.

I also shoot a replica of the original Webley bullet. That sucker is like 260 or 265 grains, which gives it some whomp regardless of the "paper ballistics".

Although the holy grail of the Webleys for most Webley fans is the un-shaved one, I'm very glad mine is "shaved". The auto-rim case is perfect, and really looks cool with the Webley bullet. Using the full moon clips with ACP cases, reloads are silly-fast, probably as fast as a magazine change, or I can pop out the slug loads and slap in a full moon clip of shot loads, and SHAZAM!! Dead grouse!

And no, I do not shoot .45ACP in it. The Webley bullet, loaded to Webley specs, will do anything I want it to do. If I wanted it to do more, yeah I'd pick another pistol. I love the .44spl, but it's edge in power would not make enough difference, to make a difference, for my purposes. If the wolf pack is closing in, and I want to pop off the Alpha-dog and save the load in my rifle (usually a ML) the 455 Webley, or it's twin in a .45ACP or AR case, will do the job just as well as a .44spl. But those are my purposes...what are yours?

Again, that heavy Webley slug packs a punch. Paired as side arm to a rifle or shotgun, I don't see where it falls short. It will fill any side-arm duty as well as any other caliber. (and I assume we are NOT talking EDC or self defense here) (or stopping the charging Grizzly Bear.)

However, since I already have the Webley, I'll take the Colt!!!! :rofl:
 
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I reload so as long as components are available, ammunition is not an issue.
Amen to that.

And, it's much less expensive to stock up on components than loaded ammo. In addition, primer and powder can be used in a variety of calibers. If one has a bullet mold, then the only component is lead, which is pretty darn "available", compared to commercially produced jacketed or swaged bullets.
 
I have to admit, the .455 exists in a black hole in my brain. I know very little about it and by that I mean nothing. Like the .38 and .44Colt heeled bullet debacle, it always sounded like more trouble than it was worth. What barrels did Colt use on their .455's? Was it the same as .45Colt and ACP? Weren't a lot of them converted?
Yes, and even if you are told it hasn't been, you still have to test it to make sure it'll shoot .455 There are ways of converting a shortened Webley cylinder back to shoot .455, I think duelist1954 did a video this year where he silver soldered a spacer/shim onto the cylinder; it's a fair amount of work that it would be nice if a professional service could do to improve the value of the revolver.

Years back when I started to get interested in top breaks and Webley's, I thought it over and decided that any shortened cylinder is no bueno because it's unknown how much factory hardball .45 ACP was shot in them, the lifespan of those revolvers will be short. Could be used as a bargaining tactic to get one for a lower price if someone really needed to sell it for quick money.

Thus, my thinking is the .38 Webley's are the way to go as they have not been altered and since they're built to shoot 200 grain loads are probably the best .38 S&W chambered revolvers made.

There were other revolvers made in .455, same as .38 S&W, notably solid frame Colts and Smiths, part of why I wanted to focus more on the .455 caliber, not necessarily all the revolvers it's available in.
 
How about BOTH?

I’ve got a MkII Webley, but unfortunately it has been shaved.
But with a 200gr LSWC over 3.5gr of Bullseye will shoot POA/POI at 7yds. I have 10 Moon clips that I load up to take to the range. It’s a hoot to shoot. Incredibly smooth action.
It’s not quite in the same league as the M69 .44mag shooting 200-255gr RFN over 5-6gr of #231.
Some day I’m going to buy some more .45auto rim brass for it…
image.jpg image.jpg
 
How about BOTH?

I’ve got a MkII Webley, but unfortunately it has been shaved.
But with a 200gr LSWC over 3.5gr of Bullseye will shoot POA/POI at 7yds. I have 10 Moon clips that I load up to take to the range. It’s a hoot to shoot. Incredibly smooth action.
It’s not quite in the same league as the M69 .44mag shooting 200-255gr RFN over 5-6gr of #231.
Some day I’m going to buy some more .45auto rim brass for it…
View attachment 1186049View attachment 1186050
There’s something about break tops, Webleys especially, they just ooze character.

The British proof marks and military marks just add to it.
 
PXL_20210410_164718688.jpg

I have both a 455 MkVI and a 38/200R MkIV. I load fairly accurate replicas of the ammunition for each using bullets from Matt's Bullets. 260gr hollow base round nose in the 455 and a 200 gr hemispherical round nose in the 38. Both at the blistering velocity of just over 600 fps. The 455 just feels better, more hefty on the hands, points better. The 38 feels rather dainty in comparison.
 
I would take a New Century chambered for either cartridge but if I hit the lottery I would buy a New Century in Forty Five S&W Special.

Kevin
This is about as close as I've come to making the .45 S&W Special:



I use these in my Ruger Blackhawk with the ACP cylinder in place.

Bob Wright
 
This 1915 S&W was an unmarked 455 Webley that was sent back from England as a 45 auto rim. Every chamber is proof marked and there's a lot of other proofs on it too.


1703551351865.jpeg
 
Webley for nostalgic cool factor, also I have .45 bullets for other 45s. No need to adopt a new bore size.
 
This is about as close as I've come to making the .45 S&W Special:



I use these in my Ruger Blackhawk with the ACP cylinder in place.

Bob Wright
Hi Bob,

Happy Christmas to you!

Nice label on that box. I keep my records in a three ring. May use that label idea. Are those Winchester 45 long Colt cases cut down?

Kevin
 
This 1915 S&W was an unmarked 455 Webley that was sent back from England as a 45 auto rim. Every chamber is proof marked and there's a lot of other proofs on it too.
A fellow in my former company had a S&W in .455 (wasn't Triple lock), target version, one of those early "Hand Ejector". Not sure did it came as a target model that from the factory, or converted by custom smith. Nevertheless, revolver is a masterpiece!
 
For those who bought a shaved Webley, what did you do to determine it wasn't shot to crap with factory .45 ACP? I get the appeal of using the moon clips with a top break, it's starting to appeal to me, but as I said previously I'm hesitant to buying one unless it's from someone I trust.
 
Webley for nostalgic cool factor, also I have .45 bullets for other 45s. No need to adopt a new bore size.

Most Webleys used a larger diameter bore & groove. Where 45 pistol in the states was .451 (.454 for the early 45 Colts) the Webley uses .455 diameter bullets. 45 ACP bullets work but the proper size works better and is less likely to lead the barrel and will often produce better accuracy.
 
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I'm bored. Let's say you won a raffle and had the choice between a Colt New Service in .44 Special or .455 Webley, which one you choosing and why?
Interesting topic.

I assume, since you have created this hypothetical situation, that you are considering the eventual purchase of a Colt New Service revolver in .44 (S & W) Special or .455 Webley? I cannot speak of the desirability or performance of the Colt New Service revolver, but I can discuss the desirability of .44 Special vs .455 Webley.

Let’s start with a discussion of the rounds themselves. You will note I cleverly described the .44 Special by its proper name in mt first reference to it in this post. .44 Special was developed in 1907 by Smith & Wesson for its brand new offering, the Smith & Wesson New Century revolver, which is colloquially referred to as the Triple Lock revolver. The .455 Webley is a British round dating from the late 19th Century and was chambered in the Triple Lock revolver for use by British Target shooters at Bisley and then later for military Triple Lock production 1914 and after by the British Government.

I suppose first the preference for .44 Special vs .455 Webley might depend on where you are located. If in the United States, .44 Special rounds and brass are far more common than .455 Webley. If you are in the UK, or a current or former British Commonwealth, the reverse is true. This statement is made irrespective of the implications of the Second Amendment (in the States) vs the lack thereof in other countries. In the UK, and current or former British Commonwealth countries, most existing handguns (if they weren’t already destroyed) are most likely little more than paperweights these days.

Then it comes down to the superiority of the round. .44 Special wins this race all around. A more powerful round and probably generally more accurate as well, especially when you note there are more bullets one can use in the .44 Special vs .455 Webley, as well as more loading date available for the .44 Special out there.

I cannot speak of the merits of the New Service vs the Nee Century revolver, as I have several Triple Lock revolvers and no New Service revolvers. However, I can state that a .44 Special Triple Lock revolver is approximately three times as common as one in .455 Webley. And, the .44 Special revolver is more d durable than one in .455 Webley because a .44 Special these days brings about 50% more than one in .455 Webley. The only exception to this might be the uncommon Target Model variation in .455 Webley. A few years ago, I tried to purchase one of these at auction that contained British proofs and was manufactured about 1909 and was blown away. With the British proofmarks, one knows it was created for export. It may have been this revolver or other similar ones that were used at Bisley, leading to British familiarity with it and a contract for (non Target Model) production of this revolver for the Great War effort beginning in 1914. In fact, British involvement is what led to the eventual demise of this model, as the .44 (and .455 Webley) Hand Ejector Second Model revolver was created to replace the .44 Hand Ejector First Model (aka New Century aka Triple Lock) revolver due to the claim that mud buildup in the shroud precluded the revolver from functioning properly. A valid and likely claim from use in the trenches. However, with only 15,376 manufactured for civilian production and approximately another 5200 for the British contract, these were not terrific sellers during the decade available for civilian purchase and expensive to produce. At $21 a revolver ($22.50 for a Target Model), they were expensive and it was all but impossible for Smith & Wesson to raise the price on a revolver that didn’t sell particularly well and yet remained at $21 throughout its production. By eliminating the shroud—and that expensive third lock—Smith & Wesson was able to decrease the cost of production and also lower the price to $19. It might not sound like much today, but a drop in price from $21 to $19 was almost a 10% decrease in price.

Then there’s the purchase today of a .44 Special revolver vs .455 Webley today and are you actually getting what you think you are? If you purchase a .44 Special, except for a very few very uncommon situations, you are getting what you expect. Purchase a .455 Webley today, and there’s a good chance the cylinder has been bored out and the recoil shield or cylinder has been shaved to accommodate the thicker rim of the .45 Colt or .45 ACP round. You really don’t want to fire .45 ACP in a Triple Lock revolver as the pressures are too great. Of course, an absent serial number on a cylinder is a clue that the cylinder has been shaved, but the easiest way to determine if a revolver has been converted to .45 Colt is to place a .45 Colt in a chamber, and if it sticks a third of the way out, the revolver remains in its original.455 Webley chambering. If it goes all the way in, the cylinder chambers have been bored out. I already stated that, with a few unique exceptions, that a .44 Special is worth about 50% more than a comparable .455 Webley Triple Lock revolver. A .455 Webley bored out to .45 Colt is a third less than an unmolested.455 Webley. And so, if you are on a budget and ammunition availability is a concern, and you want a Triple Lock revolver, a .455 Webley conversion should be what you are looking for. .45 Colt is far more readily available than .44 Special and .455 Webley combined!

And now, some obligatory photographs:

1. .44 Special Triple Lock, 7 1/2” barrel, blued
2. .44 Special, Triple Lock, 4”, nickel
3. .44 Special, Triple Lock, 5”, blued & factory engraved
4. .455 Webley, 6 1/2” barrel, blued
5. .455 Webley Hand Ejector Second Model, 6 1/2”, blued
 

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