.444 Marlin in a 3-inch .454 Casull Cylinder? Expert Opinions Wanted!

[sgtdraino]

Hello! I am not a gunsmith, but am seeking the opinions of experienced gunsmiths on a particular matter:

Taurus recently introduced the Raging Judge Magnum, a revolver designed to fire .45 Colt, 3" .410 shells, and the 65,000psi .454 Casull. Thus, we have a cylinder capable of handling cartridges that are 3" long, in a pistol that is capable of handling the pressures generated by the mighty .454 Casull. So, this got me thinking...

According to my research, .454 Casull generates pressures of around 65,000 psi. .444 Marlin only generates pressures around 45,000 psi. I understand that the .444 Marlin casing is basically the same dimensions as a .410 casing, and that some people even make .410 ammo by reloading .444 Marlin casings.

So...

Do the experts here think that the Raging Judge Magnum should also be able to safely fire .444 Marlin? It's 20,000psi less than .454 Casull, and the cartridge fits the cylinder. Is there some factor that I'm missing? Perhaps due to slight differences in dimensions? Here are the numbers (from wikipedia, except for .410):

.444 Marlin
Bullet diameter .429 in (10.9 mm)
Neck diameter .4530 in (11.51 mm)
Base diameter .4706 in (11.95 mm)
Rim diameter .5140 in (13.06 mm)
Rim thickness .0630 in (1.60 mm)
Case length 2.250 in (57.2 mm)
Overall length 2.55 in (65 mm)

.454 Casull
Bullet diameter .452 in (11.5 mm)
Neck diameter .480 in (12.2 mm)
Base diameter .480 in (12.2 mm)
Rim diameter .512 in (13.0 mm)
Rim thickness .057 in (1.4 mm)
Case length 1.383 in (35.1 mm)
Overall length 1.77 in (45 mm)

.45 Colt
Bullet diameter .454 (lead), .451 (jacketed)
Neck diameter .480 in (12.2 mm)
Base diameter .480 in (12.2 mm)
Rim diameter .512 in (13.0 mm)
Rim thickness .060 in (1.5 mm)
Case length 1.285 in (32.6 mm)
Overall length 1.600 in (40.6 mm)

.410 Bore
Rim diameter .533" 13.35 mm
Head OD 9.4685" head OD 11.91 mm
Mouth 0.4675-0.4630 11.57-11.87 mm
Length 2," 2 ½," 3" 51, 64, 76 mm

Yes, I realize the .444 bullet is slightly smaller, and probably won't engage the rifling very well. I'm not concerned about accuracy, I'm just trying to get a more-or-less definitive ruling on whether or not it would be safe to fire factory-manufactured .444 Marlin in this revolver.

In terms of answers, I would really appreciate some technical specifics. Something more than "I wouldn't do it," or "It's not a good idea," or "Only shoot what's stamped on the side of the barrel" (which isn't even true, see .357 Magnum), or "Ask Taurus" (duh, of course Taurus is going to CYA and say don't do it).

IF you believe that .444 Marlin would be unsafe to shoot in this revolver, PLEASE give me some specific, technical reasons why you think it would be unsafe to shoot. If you think it would be safe to shoot, I would also like to hear your technical reasons why.

 

[GCBurner]

It might not blow it up, but sending a .429" diameter bullet rattling down a .452" diameter barrel is unlikely to produce very good results, and the .01" smaller diameter case would at least bulge, if not actually split.
This has "Bad Idea" written all over it.

 

[rcmodel]

+1

Using the same logic, you could also fire .44 Magnum in it, because that is all a .444 Marlin case is, except longer.

But as GCBurner said.
Accuracy & full velocity of a .429" bullet rattling down a .452" bore is going to be non-existent.

rc

 

[natman]

+1

Using the same logic, you could also fire .44 Magnum in it, because that is all a .444 Marlin case is, except longer.

But as GCBurner said.
Accuracy & full velocity of a .429" bullet rattling down a .452" bore is going to be non-existent.

rc

A 444 Marlin uses the same bullet diameter as a 44 Mag, but it is NOT the same case only longer. A 44 Mag has a base diameter of only .457, considerably smaller than a 444 Marlin.

http://www.lasc.us/fryxellmarlin1894-44mag-cart-dim.htm

I agree about the bullet rattling down the bore.

 

[sgtdraino]

Thanks for the responses!

It might not blow it up, but sending a .429" diameter bullet rattling down a .452" diameter barrel is unlikely to produce very good results,

By this, do you mean poor performance/accuracy? Or something else?

and the .01" smaller diameter case would at least bulge, if not actually split.

Okay, now what would be some possible consequences of a bulging or splitting case? Obviously, it might be difficult to remove it from the cylinder. Are there other, potentially more serious consequences? If so, what?

Accuracy & full velocity of a .429" bullet rattling down a .452" bore is going to be non-existent.

Let us assume that I don't care about accuracy or velocity, in and of themselves. Could the loss in accuracy or velocity create any safety issues that you can think of? If so, what?

A 444 Marlin uses the same bullet diameter as a 44 Mag, but it is NOT the same case only longer. A 44 Mag has a base diameter of only .457, considerably smaller than a 444 Marlin.

This.

I agree about the bullet rattling down the bore.

Granted. Now, are there other problems that this could cause, in addition to a loss in accuracy and velocity? If so, what?

btw, I will interject at this point that the Raging Judge Magnum has somewhat shallower rifling, due to its intended alternative purpose of having .410 shot and .410 slugs rattling down its bore. Not sure if that is germane to this discussion, but it sounded potentially relevant. You tell me?

Again, thanks for the feedback. Please keep it coming.

ETA: Someone on another forum said this:

.454 bullet is .452 vs 444 bullet that is .429". The .429" bullet will wooble down the barrel never getting enough back pressure to light the powder till it exits the barrel and hits the oxygen rich air at that time will explode to a hugh fire ball.

I'm not sure if they were having some fun with me or not, as this does not sound realistic to me. Thoughts?

 

[Sport45]

It seems to me it would just be a waste of a perfectly good bullet and piece of brass.

Why would you want to try this? It isn't like .444 Marlin is cheaper than .454 or .45 Colt and you certainly won't get better performance from it.

 

[sgtdraino]

It seems to me it would just be a waste of a perfectly good bullet and piece of brass.

It would just be target shooting, and I don't reload, so the waste for me is pretty much the same.

Why would you want to try this?

The simplest explanation, is that I know people who like firing large cartridges. We currently own a "Thunder Five," which is a revolver that can fire .45-70. But it's got a 2" barrel with almost no rifling, so the accuracy is nonexistent. Firing .45-70 out of it is, pretty much, a waste of a cartridge... with the exception that it brings joy to some of the people I know. Seriously, it is the highlight of their day. If we eventually decide to sell the Thunder Five once we have the Raging Judge Magnum, they are going to miss the rush of firing that giant cartridge. Sure, .454 Casull is more powerful than either .45-70 or .444 Marlin, but for our friends, the size of the cartridge is what "wows" them, not the actual power.

It isn't like .444 Marlin is cheaper than .454 or .45 Colt and you certainly won't get better performance from it.

But what I won't get, is a gigantic casing that my friends can take as a souvenier, show their friends, and say "Look what I shot!"

Hey, I didn't say it was a particularly good reason.

Oh, PS, in case this has a bearing on the scenario, the Raging Judge Magnum has a 6-inch barrel.

Oh, PPS, someone else I talked to said something about the "force cone" perhaps being an issue. He was unable to elaborate on what he meant though.

 

[Sport45]

The forcing cone won't be an issue. The cylinder throats might well be. The .444 Marlin case is .454" at the mouth. At least that's what mine measure with a 265gr FP bullet seated. If you jam that into a .452 throat you will probably have issues... I do not know what the cylinder throats measure on your revolver.

Not worth the risk IMHO.

Keep in mind that .45 Colt and .454 Casull use the same diameter bullet. The .454" bore for .45 Colt was discontinued in the 40's or thereabouts.

The forcing cone is the slight taper at the cylinder end of the barrel that "funnels" the bullet into the bore. It allows for miniscule mis-alignment between the barrel and cylinder when the gun is fired. Its opening is larger than the groove diameter of the barrel.

 

[RaceM]

Wouldn't it just be simpler to hang a new barrel on the Thunder and keep blasting away with the 45-70? The forcing cone is the end of the barrel towards the cylinder. It has a taper in it to guide the bullets into engagement with the rifling as they exit the cylinder. I'm not sure which forcing cone would be at issue... the Taurus or the Thunder? Stuffing a smaller bullet up the pipe can give you a wildly gyrating bullet (like a badly thrown football), and stuffing a bigger one up there will shave lead (or split the cone).

 

[sgtdraino]

The forcing cone won't be an issue. The cylinder throats might well be. The .444 Marlin case is .454" at the mouth. At least that's what mine measure with a 265gr FP bullet seated. If you jam that into a .452 throat you will probably have issues... I do not know what the cylinder throats measure on your revolver.

Interesting. So, you are speculating that the cylinder throats might potentially be too small to accomodate the mouth of the .444 cartridge. Rest assured, I will not be jamming anything into anything. Based on my research, though, this should not be a problem. Threads that I've checked out which talk about reloading .444 casings to make .410 ammunition note that the .444 casings should not be then used to reload .444 again, because after being fired in a .410 chamber, the casing has expanded enough to be too weak for .444 purposes. If anything, there seems to be a little play until the case fire forms when it is fired. For example:

The 444's are a little sloppy until fired, but not as much as 44 mags. The 444 actually has a larger base than the 44 magnum. The rim size is essentially the same as is the case mouth, but the .444 base is a little larger. I fool around so much with things like this just seeing "what will work" but as I recall, the only sizing I've had to do with the 444's was to run 'em into a .308 die until they were a fall in fit back in the .410. I usually do this after I've loaded them and it just squeezes everything back to size. Yes, they do swell when fired. If you've got a gun with nice smooth chamber walls, you may not have to resize. Just try 'em back in the gun.

http://forum1.aimoo.com/cast___boolits__/category/Reloading-410-useing-444-brass-1-471606.html

Made some "everlasting" 410s out of 444s a few years ago. First time firing was uneventful, not a good seal as the cases had to fire form. After that, fun and games.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-562070.html

Here's a detailed article on reloading .410 using .444 casings:

http://www.endtimesreport.com/410reloading.html

And here's a thread with some good comparison pics:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=37726

Not worth the risk IMHO.

What sort of risk, specifically?

The forcing cone is the slight taper at the cylinder end of the barrel that "funnels" the bullet into the bore. It allows for miniscule mis-alignment between the barrel and cylinder when the gun is fired. Its opening is larger than the groove diameter of the barrel.

Ah, thanks! I learned something new!

Wouldn't it just be simpler to hang a new barrel on the Thunder and keep blasting away with the 45-70?

Sounds expensive and complicated, to me. It would have to be custom made.

I'm not sure which forcing cone would be at issue... the Taurus or the Thunder?

Talking about the Taurus.

Stuffing a smaller bullet up the pipe can give you a wildly gyrating bullet (like a badly thrown football),

And what are the various potential negative consequences of that?

and stuffing a bigger one up there will shave lead (or split the cone).

NOT going to do that!

 

[Sport45]

Here's a drawing of a .444 Marlin cartridge from the Ranch Dog Outdoors website. You can see the case mouth with a bullet seated is too large to fit in the throat area of a 45 caliber revolver cylinder.

What sort of risk, specifically?

If the case mouth can't open and release the bullet you'll have 50+ grains of a fast rifle powder burning and the pressure spike could easily disassemble your handgun in a spectacular way. It's enough risk to keep me from trying.

 

[sgtdraino]

Here's a drawing of a .444 Marlin cartridge from the Ranch Dog Outdoors website. You can see the case mouth with a bullet seated is too large to fit in the throat area of a 45 caliber revolver cylinder.

Alrighty. Of course, this isn't just a .45 cylinder, it is also a .454 cylinder, and a .410 cylinder. I haven't been able to find case mouth data on .410, though.

ETA: Unless I am looking at the wrong thing, the numbers in your diagram do not seem to match the data I listed in post #1 for .444 Marlin. Is my data wrong? I got it from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.444_Marlin

If the case mouth can't open and release the bullet you'll have 50+ grains of a fast rifle powder burning and the pressure spike could easily disassemble your handgun in a spectacular way.

lol. Well, those are definitely the kinds of specific answers I'm looking for!

It's enough risk to keep me from trying.

Shouldn't it be fairly obvious from the get-go whether or not this will be a problem, though? If I stick the .444 cartridge in the cylinder and it moves freely, and then I take it out and stick it in the cylinder from the other side, and see how far in it will go, this should give me a good idea whether or not the case mouth is too large without ever firing the weapon, no?

 

[CraigC]

If it chambers, there is probably no safety risk. With the bullet that much smaller than the bore, pressure will actually drop much lower than if fired in a proper rifle. Which, IMHO, is the best place for rifle cartridges. There's really no good reason to do this, whatsoever. Unless your only goal is to say that "hey, I did something stupid".

 

[Jim Watson]

Lessee, now. The zombie is chasing me through the looted sporting goods store. The only ammo not already taken is the fairly obscure .444 Marlin. So in desperation I load my depleted Judge with some and blast the zombie. Yeah, that's it.

Really, now. I read a lot on the Internet that leads me to think that some people consider a gun just another type of fireworks.

 

[sgtdraino]

If it chambers, there is probably no safety risk. With the bullet that much smaller than the bore, pressure will actually drop much lower than if fired in a proper rifle.

That is what I was thinking, but I am no expert. I figured there are bound to be factors I was failing to consider.

There's really no good reason to do this, whatsoever. Unless your only goal is to say that "hey, I did something stupid".

Like I said before, you could say the same thing about firing .45-70 out of a 2-inch barrel. This is strictly entertainment value only. And yes, it is indeed very similar to the joy people get from fireworks.

But I want to make sure I know what the safety issues are.

 

[daorhgih]

Great ".4++" cal. discussion

I had the same questions about the relatively tamer Judge 3"x3" 'magnum' cylinder. These notes have dispelled all of my physical wonderments. But how about a .410 rifled slug agreeing to agree with the rifling in the 3-in. barrel, here?

 

[sgtdraino]

I had the same questions about the relatively tamer Judge 3"x3" 'magnum' cylinder. These notes have dispelled all of my physical wonderments.

Yeah, no contest there. .444 Marlin is WAY more pressure than a regular Judge or the 3" .410 "Magnum" Judge can handle. The Raging Judge Magnum, with its .454 Casull capacity, is the first version to really make this a possibility... depending on who you ask.

But how about a .410 rifled slug agreeing to agree with the rifling in the 3-in. barrel, here?

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. The rifling in the Judge series is somewhat shallower for shooting shot. Are you noting that a slug would essentially "rattle down the barrel" like a .444 bullet would?

Btw, the RGM version I am talking about has a 6-inch barrel. It also comes in 3-inch, but I am getting the 6-inch.

ETA: from the same person in another forum who made the comment about a "hugh fireball":

All I can say is wear a welder's helmet and a fireman's suit and wait for a good tail wind. There will be gas leakage at the rear of the cylinder as well because the 444 Marlin case will not seal off the rear of the cylinder either.

This sounds like hyperbole to me. Thoughts?

 

[sgtdraino]

Just had this reasoned response from another forum:

You have .010 smaller base diameter on the .444 than you do with the .454. You have two scenarios there to fail...one being that gas leakage is more than likely, and that's if the case on the .444 doesn't give way. That gas leakage at the back of the cylinder will likely cause you pain. That is best case scenario. Worst case is that you will suffer a case rupture at the base which equates to case head separation, and that in itself could cause firearm and shooter damage. One additional factor in your .44M in a .45 cyl question is that the .444 generates 10,000 psi over the 44M. That's a substantial difference.

I've done a lot of experimenting over the years, tried a lot of things in controlled (read safe here) situations, that others were scared of, but I would never attempt that one.

What do you guys think? Concur?

 

[natman]

Just had this reasoned response from another forum:



What do you guys think? Concur?

Yes. Add in the potential problems of the wrong throat and the too small bullet dealing with the forcing cone & rifling and it adds up to a big DON'T DO IT.

 

[CraigC]

What do you guys think? Concur?

Uh, yeah!

 

[Sam1911]

Let's call this "answered."

Bad. No. Don't. Dangerous. Irresponsible. Unneccessary.