jimhickson
Member
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2013
- Messages
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Loading 410 Shot Shells Using 444 Marlin Brass ( by Jim H.)
First, I want to acknowledge the article written by Woody, and copied below, which was most helpful in my starting of this endeavor. Quote,
“For reference, the base diameter of factory .410's is 0.469", and the rim diameter is 0.524". .444 Marlin cases are straight walled and can be used as .410 brass without the need for fireforming, but have the penalty of a 2.162" case length. The base diameter of the .444 Marlin is 0.469", whereas the .303 British has a base diameter of 0.458". The rim diameter is smaller with the .444 Marlin - 0.514" instead of the 0530" rim diameter of the .303 British - so it is theoretically possible that a really loose extractor might not catch the rim. The 9.3 x 74R European brass has a base diameter of 0.465", a rim diameter of 0.524, and an overall length of 3.47". The rim thickness (headspace) of the 9.3 x 74R, however, can be a tight fit in minimum .410 bore shotgun chambers, and may need to be thinned before use. Obviously we're only talking a few hundreds or thousands of an inch differences here, but it is a complication not taken with abandon.
FWIW - Loading .444's for the .410
Assuming we’re using fired cases, check to see if they’ll fit in the shotgun. If not they’ll need resizing at some point.
De-prime any way you can, even to using a homemade punch from a 16d nail.
Re-prime using an appropriate shell holder and large rifle (or pistol) primers.
Add appropriate powder charge for ½ oz. .410 load. Top powder charge with overpowder wad seated firmly against the powder with a 3/8" dowel. I cut my own wads from cardboard boxes ranging from primer boxes to cereal boxes using a homemade cutter. I then add one or two more cardboard wads lubed with bullet lube and top with a styrofoam filler wad cut from a meat packing tray. Again, seat wads firmly. Note, no seating die used. With a little finger finesse, the wads can be inserted individually and run down inside the case with the dowel.
Add shot and top with an overshot wad, again, homemade from card stock. The overshot wad can be sealed with most anything from Elmer’s glue to waterglass (the old way). In addition, if desired, a slight bevel can be added to everything by running the loaded shell into a .308 size die until it contacts the shoulder. This also resizes the case sufficiently that it always fits in my .410's.
I wrote this up for another forum. Maybe it'll help you. Regards, Woody”
I have perfected the use of 444 Marlin Brass in the loading of 410 Shot Shells in the following ways.
I have two over/under 410 shotguns. Both shotguns require sanding of the heads on the 444 Marlin brass to permit complete and proper breach closing. I use a 2” belt sander (be sure to use the portion of the moving belt that has the backup plate support below in order to obtain flat sanding of the head) and a 15/32 bit and drill to spin the brass on the moving sand belt. I use a “stop” on the sander that is set to about 1/8” above the moving belt which keeps the spinning shell from “tracking” off, or all over, the moving belt. Also, use a glove to remove the sanded shell from the bit, it will be extremely hot after only a 1 second sanding. Carefully remove all of the embossed brass head lettering and try in your gun to gauge the amount of any extra brass needed to be removed to properly close the breach. Some loose breached guns my not need this sanding to properly close. Check by closing the gun with no 444 Marlin shells in the chambers as well as with shells. The opening tang on the gun should be identical with both checks. If not, continue to sand the shell head. See left photo below, also note the “SHIP” metal plate clamped to the sander table to get above the backup plate for the flat sanding of the spinning head.
I now use a 444 Marlin de-priming size die (Lee 444 Marlin die set) to de-prime and re-prime the used shells ( see 9:00 and 12:00 positions dies on the right photo above, one is without a de-priming pin the other is with a de-priming pin). Re-prime with either Large Pistol (preferred) or Large Rifle primers.
I then use a Lee Powder measure set to drop 12.0 to 12.2 grains of Hodgen LiL Gun Powder into the brass, followed by Claybuster or Remington 410 red plastic wads for ½ oz.s of shot (see right photo below). All shells loaded with powder and topped with these wads (for 2 1/2” shells). Then the wads are pressed down firmly with a 5/16”x 6” stove bolt. See the upper right photo above, the ¼ x 6” stove bolt has large washers bolted to the head and is shown out of focus at the top of the photo.
I then fill the shells with ½ to 9/16 oz. of shot using an old MEC loader with the bar drilled out to give slightly more than ½ oz. to properly fill the shell. See Left photo above.
I now use a homemade punch (pictured below left) on my drill press to cut out plastic overshot wads (using old gal plastic milk or water jugs) that barely (.450” diameter size or less) can be inserted in the mouth of the shell over #6 to #9 shot. Cut wads are pictured below right.
I now use a bullet seating die that I have modified using an old 308 bullet seating die, and an 18 mm nut that I have ground down (outside diameter)to just fit inside the die head and made to a conical shaped hole (smallest diameter about 13/32”or slightly less) using tapered drill bits and tapered grinding stones. I insert the modified tapered hole nut in the top of the bullet seating die, which has been further modified using a ¼” stove bolt (with head ground to about 5/16” diameter so as to pass through the 18 mm modified tapered hole nut) in order to seat the plastic overshot wad to the proper depth. This ¼” stove bolt is threaded through the die cap and held in place by a locking nut. Thus, when I seat the plastic overshot wad I also taper the cartridge mouth (with the same taper as the modified 18 mm nut) so the shot cannot come out. I can screw the ¼” bolt in the top of the die cap (the cap that holds the 18 mm nut modified in place inside the die) to put pressure on the overshot wad inside the tapered shell to get the proper depth of wad. The proper position of the overshot wad is sitting on the shot just below where the taper begins. See 6:00 position Left Photo below. Written by Jim H. on Jan.20,2013.
Loading 410 Shot Shells Using 45 Colt Pistol Brass (by Jim H.)
Please read ” Loading 410 Shot Shells Using 444 Marlin Brass “ (by Jim H.) above before reading this article. Most of the techniques are similar.
The same procedure as above for the 444 Marlin brass is used for the 45 Colt brass in sanding off the markings on the head of the brass in order to have the breach on the gun properly close .
Also, use 45 Colt dies to resize the brass and deprime the spent shell.
I use 11.8 to 12.0 grains of Hodgon LiL Gun powder. I then top it with one of my plastic milk jug wads that is slightly larger in diameter than my overshot wads to obtain a snug fit when pressed over the powder (better gas seal). I then use my old MEC loader with a powder hole that has been drilled out to properly fill the brass with sufficient shot to leave just enough space for another overshot wad ( slightly smaller in diameter that the over powder wad) and leaving enough remaining length to make my taper crimp. See the lower right picture below, the loaded shell lying flat is a 45Colt with #9 shot.
.
NOTE: The author assumes no Legal or Financial responsibility for anyone using the above information either expressed or implied.
Written by Jim H. on July 9, 2013.
First, I want to acknowledge the article written by Woody, and copied below, which was most helpful in my starting of this endeavor. Quote,
“For reference, the base diameter of factory .410's is 0.469", and the rim diameter is 0.524". .444 Marlin cases are straight walled and can be used as .410 brass without the need for fireforming, but have the penalty of a 2.162" case length. The base diameter of the .444 Marlin is 0.469", whereas the .303 British has a base diameter of 0.458". The rim diameter is smaller with the .444 Marlin - 0.514" instead of the 0530" rim diameter of the .303 British - so it is theoretically possible that a really loose extractor might not catch the rim. The 9.3 x 74R European brass has a base diameter of 0.465", a rim diameter of 0.524, and an overall length of 3.47". The rim thickness (headspace) of the 9.3 x 74R, however, can be a tight fit in minimum .410 bore shotgun chambers, and may need to be thinned before use. Obviously we're only talking a few hundreds or thousands of an inch differences here, but it is a complication not taken with abandon.
FWIW - Loading .444's for the .410
Assuming we’re using fired cases, check to see if they’ll fit in the shotgun. If not they’ll need resizing at some point.
De-prime any way you can, even to using a homemade punch from a 16d nail.
Re-prime using an appropriate shell holder and large rifle (or pistol) primers.
Add appropriate powder charge for ½ oz. .410 load. Top powder charge with overpowder wad seated firmly against the powder with a 3/8" dowel. I cut my own wads from cardboard boxes ranging from primer boxes to cereal boxes using a homemade cutter. I then add one or two more cardboard wads lubed with bullet lube and top with a styrofoam filler wad cut from a meat packing tray. Again, seat wads firmly. Note, no seating die used. With a little finger finesse, the wads can be inserted individually and run down inside the case with the dowel.
Add shot and top with an overshot wad, again, homemade from card stock. The overshot wad can be sealed with most anything from Elmer’s glue to waterglass (the old way). In addition, if desired, a slight bevel can be added to everything by running the loaded shell into a .308 size die until it contacts the shoulder. This also resizes the case sufficiently that it always fits in my .410's.
I wrote this up for another forum. Maybe it'll help you. Regards, Woody”
I have perfected the use of 444 Marlin Brass in the loading of 410 Shot Shells in the following ways.
I have two over/under 410 shotguns. Both shotguns require sanding of the heads on the 444 Marlin brass to permit complete and proper breach closing. I use a 2” belt sander (be sure to use the portion of the moving belt that has the backup plate support below in order to obtain flat sanding of the head) and a 15/32 bit and drill to spin the brass on the moving sand belt. I use a “stop” on the sander that is set to about 1/8” above the moving belt which keeps the spinning shell from “tracking” off, or all over, the moving belt. Also, use a glove to remove the sanded shell from the bit, it will be extremely hot after only a 1 second sanding. Carefully remove all of the embossed brass head lettering and try in your gun to gauge the amount of any extra brass needed to be removed to properly close the breach. Some loose breached guns my not need this sanding to properly close. Check by closing the gun with no 444 Marlin shells in the chambers as well as with shells. The opening tang on the gun should be identical with both checks. If not, continue to sand the shell head. See left photo below, also note the “SHIP” metal plate clamped to the sander table to get above the backup plate for the flat sanding of the spinning head.
I now use a 444 Marlin de-priming size die (Lee 444 Marlin die set) to de-prime and re-prime the used shells ( see 9:00 and 12:00 positions dies on the right photo above, one is without a de-priming pin the other is with a de-priming pin). Re-prime with either Large Pistol (preferred) or Large Rifle primers.
I then use a Lee Powder measure set to drop 12.0 to 12.2 grains of Hodgen LiL Gun Powder into the brass, followed by Claybuster or Remington 410 red plastic wads for ½ oz.s of shot (see right photo below). All shells loaded with powder and topped with these wads (for 2 1/2” shells). Then the wads are pressed down firmly with a 5/16”x 6” stove bolt. See the upper right photo above, the ¼ x 6” stove bolt has large washers bolted to the head and is shown out of focus at the top of the photo.
I then fill the shells with ½ to 9/16 oz. of shot using an old MEC loader with the bar drilled out to give slightly more than ½ oz. to properly fill the shell. See Left photo above.
I now use a homemade punch (pictured below left) on my drill press to cut out plastic overshot wads (using old gal plastic milk or water jugs) that barely (.450” diameter size or less) can be inserted in the mouth of the shell over #6 to #9 shot. Cut wads are pictured below right.
I now use a bullet seating die that I have modified using an old 308 bullet seating die, and an 18 mm nut that I have ground down (outside diameter)to just fit inside the die head and made to a conical shaped hole (smallest diameter about 13/32”or slightly less) using tapered drill bits and tapered grinding stones. I insert the modified tapered hole nut in the top of the bullet seating die, which has been further modified using a ¼” stove bolt (with head ground to about 5/16” diameter so as to pass through the 18 mm modified tapered hole nut) in order to seat the plastic overshot wad to the proper depth. This ¼” stove bolt is threaded through the die cap and held in place by a locking nut. Thus, when I seat the plastic overshot wad I also taper the cartridge mouth (with the same taper as the modified 18 mm nut) so the shot cannot come out. I can screw the ¼” bolt in the top of the die cap (the cap that holds the 18 mm nut modified in place inside the die) to put pressure on the overshot wad inside the tapered shell to get the proper depth of wad. The proper position of the overshot wad is sitting on the shot just below where the taper begins. See 6:00 position Left Photo below. Written by Jim H. on Jan.20,2013.
Loading 410 Shot Shells Using 45 Colt Pistol Brass (by Jim H.)
Please read ” Loading 410 Shot Shells Using 444 Marlin Brass “ (by Jim H.) above before reading this article. Most of the techniques are similar.
The same procedure as above for the 444 Marlin brass is used for the 45 Colt brass in sanding off the markings on the head of the brass in order to have the breach on the gun properly close .
Also, use 45 Colt dies to resize the brass and deprime the spent shell.
I use 11.8 to 12.0 grains of Hodgon LiL Gun powder. I then top it with one of my plastic milk jug wads that is slightly larger in diameter than my overshot wads to obtain a snug fit when pressed over the powder (better gas seal). I then use my old MEC loader with a powder hole that has been drilled out to properly fill the brass with sufficient shot to leave just enough space for another overshot wad ( slightly smaller in diameter that the over powder wad) and leaving enough remaining length to make my taper crimp. See the lower right picture below, the loaded shell lying flat is a 45Colt with #9 shot.
.
NOTE: The author assumes no Legal or Financial responsibility for anyone using the above information either expressed or implied.
Written by Jim H. on July 9, 2013.
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