44mag vs 357 carbine

[wild willy]

I have shot 2 deer with the .357 and 4 with the .44 with a rifle.There was a big difference in damage done by the .44 compared to the .357 I used Hornady bullets 158 FP and 240 HP. I know it’s not many deer but the difference was substantial.All deer were one shot one ran a short distance with the 357 and one ran a short distance with the .44.If you’re buying one to hunt with I’d get the .44 but if you already have a.357 I’d hunt with it.

 

[Varminterror]

The 250 yards is a stretch for (deer) killing power at 250 yards even for the .30-30

Guys like to say this, but it’s just not true. The trajectory and precision are the issue, not killing power.

44mag 240’s from a rifle will be 1100-1200fps and ~750ft.lbs. at 250yrds. Saying we’re running out of killing power there is to say a 357mag can never kill a deer at any distance, nor 45colt, and that a 44mag revolver with its muzzle pressed against the flesh of a deer is not enough “killing power.” It’s just unfounded speculation, driven by biased and inexperienced mythology. But a leveraction 44mag picks up enough speed in the long barrel to effectively add those 250 yards just to get back to an equivalency of a revolver at the muzzle… and I don’t think anyone would sensibly argue that a 240grn 44mag revolver at muzzle to 50yrds has any problem laying down deer.

And of course, a 30-30 has higher ballistic coefficient and higher velocity, higher impact energy, and higher sectional density, pushed over a flatter trajectory, so everything above which makes the 44mag remain capable at 250 is even better for 30-30.

But not a lot of guys expect enough of their leverguns to develop loads to get the job done, nor use optics which enable such long shots. No claim being made that 44mag carbines are long range precision rifles, but 250yrds isn’t really asking beyond the capability of the cartridge or rifle.

 

[3Crows]

Guys like to say this, but it’s just not true. The trajectory and precision are the issue, not killing power.

If a "guy" sticks to the often suggested 1,000 fpe minimum for ethical and reliable kills for deer sized game then it is true, if not then it is not. As I said, the devil is in the details and I do not think there is any magic in the 1,000 fpe, this is a judgment up to the hunter. Thus the details like good shot placement, good bullet selection and a good sighting system and again the good judgment of the hunter. I also have no issue with optics on a lever gun and most of mine are so equipped.

I am not going to select a .44 Magnum carbine for a 250 yards deer rifle, there are better choices. Could a hunter take a deer at 250 yards with a .44 Magnum carbine, sure, of course.

3C

 

[Varminterror]

If a "guy" sticks to the often suggested 1,000 fpe minimum for ethical and reliable kills for deer sized game…

…then they subscribe to absolute nonsense and shouldn’t be giving advice about hunting capabilities of revolver cartridges.

Because - again - this 1,000 ft.lbs. garbage would have fools believe that a 357mag or 45 colt is not capable of cleanly killing deer at any range, including with the muzzle pressed against the flesh of the deer…

 

[Speedo66]

There are better choices for long range hunting than either the .357 or the .44.

If you limit the range to that which they are effective in and where most hunters would be able to consistently place their shots, than either would probably be fine when shot from a rifle.

 

[3Crows]

…then they subscribe to absolute nonsense and shouldn’t be giving advice about hunting capabilities of revolver cartridges.

Because - again - this 1,000 ft.lbs. garbage would have fools believe that a 357mag or 45 colt is not capable of cleanly killing deer at any range, including with the muzzle pressed against the flesh of the deer…

There are better choices available in cartridges and rifles than a lever gun carbine for 250 yards deer hunting.

 

[mcb]

Not all of us are looking for an optimal choice. Some of us like to pick the gun and they see how far we can stretch it and still ethically hunt. Everyone told me 410 slugs were insufficient for deer hunting. I proved them wrong, at least to my own satisfaction.

 

[3Crows]

And a lot of us are looking for an optimal choice and thus you essentially agree that a .44 Magnum is stretched at 250 yards. And where this argument is growing from is the subjective nature of defining practicality and of ethical. I will leave it at that in the context of my prior posts in this thread.

Did the OP ask or require a 250 yards rifle?

 

[jmorris]

Not all of us are looking for an optimal choice. Some of us like to pick the gun and they see how far we can stretch it and still ethically hunt.

I think the problem there is the ethical killing of stuff. It varies a lot between people. Some people have lots of rules https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/kosher-slaughtering-an-introduction/.

For myself, there is a much wider range because most of the stuff I kill, I would kill any way I could. I would poison pigs if that kept them out of the hay meadows (would also not harm them at all if they stayed off them).

Having killed hundreds of them in traps with the .22lr, I understand that it doesn’t take 1000 ft/lb energy to kill them quickly.

I have come across them when I didn’t have a suitable (to me) firearm to engage him at that distance but I did have a .22 that I knew I could fire accurately at the distance and a understanding of the spot the bullet needed to be for any chance of flipping the switch.

That’s it, just off the bank far side of the pond.



All remaining 98 ft/lbs from the 40 grain solid, he didn’t take a single step.



So, proving to myself I can “lights out” a pig at that distance with less than 100 ft/lbs of energy would it be ethical and more sporting to “stretch it” and use a .22 LR (forget about legal for a minute)?

And a lot of us are looking for an optimal choice….

Those people are generally not found in pistol caliber carbine threads. They are what they are. Love or hate them. Why I just look at the data vs talk about feelings when I compare various rounds.

It’s this way I avoid getting caught up dealing with the subjective.

And where this argument is growing from is the subjective nature of defining practicality and of ethical.

 

[someguy2800]

I didn't see anyone suggesting a 44 magnum is an optimal choice for 250 yards. It certainly is no great task to make a hit with a 44 mag at 250 yards. I would equate it to making a hit with a 308 win at 400. You need to know what your doing, but its no magic trick. You need to have verified range, know the wind, and have an accurate enough rifle to start with, which are all big and important ifs. I've shot lots of plates at 250 with a 357 max handgun at similar muzzle velocities and BC's.

 

[MEHavey]

It certainly is no great task to make a hit with a 44 mag at 250 yard

If hunting, it must be first shot out.

Even set to +/- 4" out to 200 yds, estimating drop
after that point (2" every 5 yd) is .......problematic

.

 

[Varminterror]

Did the OP ask or require a 250 yards rifle?

No, the OP asked us to compare and contrast the performance between the 357mag and 44mag.

How would you rate the difference between 357 and 44 in carbines gents? Is the 44 a marked step up to take a larger class of animals?

To which I offered my experienced opinion, and supporting quantitative power comparison:

Yes, the 44mag is a considerable step up over 357mag, with corresponding improvement in on-game performance to tackle larger game. The 44mag hits harder at 100yrds than does the 357mag at the muzzle. […]

[I personally] have no hesitation to send a 240grn bullet after a deer at 200-250 yards. Precision in position is the limiting factor for the 44mag, not power. Alternatively, I’m self-limiting with my 357mags to only be confident to 100-150 yards, as power upon impact does factor into the equation, considerably, for the 357.

And the information provided seemed to aid the OP in making a decision, as they purchased a 44mag.

Thanks all for the comments on the power relation of the two cartridges too. Just bought me a stainless 20" Rossi 44 mag, the toughest (and roughest) of the repros.

The drudging conversation of your personal, irrational biases and self-limitations which are inappropriately applied to the revolver cartridges being discussed in this thread.

Unfortunately, a lot more folks hold this kind of unfounded bias than the number of folks who have the experience of actually hunting with revolver cartridge carbines (or even revolvers, for that matter - deer will fall to a revolver farther than you’re even assigning to a rifle). So we see this kind of bad advice kicked around any time a conversation of performance comparison comes up. It’s well meaning enough, but it’s effectively Flat-Earthing, as those folks have to completely ignore ballistic science and documented experience of others, and completely ignore quantitative and mathematical challenges to their bias… much like you’ve ignored my challenge that to support your limitation on the 44mag, your boundary also forces you to believe 357mag and 45 Colt are “marginal at best” even with the muzzle pressed against the hide of the animal…

 

[MEHavey]

If you're talking about residual killing power @ 250, no problemmo -- with either cartridge out of a rifle
The problem is putting it on an 8' target zone at that distance -- 1st shot again -- while it's increasingly acting like a rock.

Having hunted in the field with the 44 & 45 rifles starting back in the early 70's, I learned to establish that
game animal point-blank range and stay within it. 200 yards is both routinely doable, and responsible.

.

 

[someguy2800]

If hunting, it must be first shot out.

Even set to +/- 4" out to 200 yds, estimating drop
after that point (2" every 5 yd) is .......problematic

.

It would not be problematic if you know what your doing and have the correct equipment. As I said you need to know exact range and wind. Its just a turn of the elevation dial. The drop is not difficult, it will be the wind that really makes the difference. You also need a deer that knows how to stand still, which is a pretty rare sight where I hunt. It is not a shot for the casual shooter to take, but in the right conditions its not that difficult of a shot. As I said the drop and drift are pretty similar to a 308 win at 400.

 

[MEHavey]

It would not be problematic if you know what your doing and have the correct equipment.

I (for one) know what I'm doing, and do have that the right (rangefinder) equipment.
And I still wouldn't do it.

 

[Varminterror]

The OP will be just fine taking deer out to 150 yards with his new 44mag, regardless of what personal limitations the rest of us choose.

 

[trekker73]

Did the OP ask or require a 250 yards rifle?

I was more after the game killing differences. Possibly didnt word it right but I said in the blurb whether 44 enables a different class of game. Eg I can shoot xyz with the 44mag but not xyz with the 357.

I queried the first fella for clarification since hunting 250 yards with a 44 mag is like some fella saying 550 yard hunting with a 308.

But it became clear soon after what was meant and long range applications is an interesting subject to hear about in itself.

 

[MEHavey]

the 357 Mag 158gr Gold Dot is doing 1,200fps at 200.
The 44 Mag 240gr Gold Dot is doing 1,250.

If you hit that 8" pie plate, either will be more than sufficient.

 

[Hokkmike]

My simplest answer is that I would feel comfortable hunting deer with a .44 mag. I would not with a .357.

 

[adcoch1]

I have personal limitations with pistol cal carbines, and the average deer shot around here would be fine for either a 357 or 44 mag carbine. I ve shot deer past 70 yards with a 44 mag redhawk revolver, and used to shoot clay birds on the 200 yard berm. A 44 should be easily capable of 200+ yards if you know your gun, the limit for 357 in my hands is 100

 

[Remington1911]

We all have different views and different skill sets. For one person an ethical kill may be limited to inside of 100 yards with "real" rifle cartridges. For others hitting a paper plate at 500 for an entire magazine is well within their skill level. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle, and that is set by our own experiences. In many aspects .gov says what we can and can't do. Straight wall cartridges and such in some places.

Just for ME, anymore I see nothing to brag about taking an animal just standing there with a rifle that I can hit a target at 4x the distance that is 1/2 the size as the "sweet spot" on a deer. I get flat nothing out of it anymore....the thrill, fun, enjoyment.....whatever is just flat gone....totally gone. I would if I have to, and every day it looks like I might be doing a great deal more myself, but that day is not here.....yet.

For those that still do hunt, only thing I will offer is operate inside of your skill range with that weapon. Practice on a living thing should be a non starter. It should be one and done.

 

[someguy2800]

I’ve killed 3 deer with a 357 revolver and that was enough to conclude for me that it’s really not where it’s at. My 357 max was better but at a certain range both a 357 max and a 357 carbine are back down to revolver velocity. For me hands down 44 magnum.

 

[Y-T71]

I'm on the hunt for a 20" pistol caliber lever gun.

I have no intention on using it to hunt with it, just a fun plinker.

If I needed to press it Into hunting duty it would be very unlikely, due to the very hilly terrain of east central Ohio and my own personal limitations, for me to a take shot farther than 150 yds.

I handload and cast for both cartridges and have more or less settled on the .357 but wouldn't turn down a .44 if I found one for a good price.

I'm much more heavily invested in .44 components anyway so it's probably the better caliber in the long run but I have it in my mind "less powder, less lead and less recoil" which fits into my plinker rifle plan.

 

[Speedo66]

If I needed to press it Into hunting duty it would be very unlikely, due to the very hilly terrain of east central Ohio and my own personal limitations, for me to a take shot farther than 150 yds.

I haven't hunted there, but that hilly terrain makes for nice off road motorcycle riding. I've ridden a few times in Wayne Nat'l Forest in the Hocking Hills area, probably be good hunting territory.

 

[Varminterror]

@xphunter does stuff with 357magnums I admire as beyond my personal ability and confidence, and I try to calibrate my own expectations a bit based on what successes he’s shared publicly. So I may not have taken a 134 yard shot with a 357mag with just a red dot, but I know with the retained power of the 357mag, somewhere in that 150yrd ballpark is reasonable if the shooter can place the bullet. (Gratuitous inclusion of his 110yrd 44mag Antelope as well).

But this photo of Mark Hampton also illustrates well the upward swing in game taking capacity of the 44magnum, exceeding the capacity of the 357 mag.