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JCSC
Member
I was too lazy to type undersized.
45 1911 setback issue
- Thread starter JCSC
- Start date
Blue68f100
Member
I received a undersized 40 cal in a lot of stuff from a friend of mine. I compared the std to the undersized and it was 0.010" smaller. That is way too much and will over work the brass big time. I threw in the drawer and never touched it again. I see no use of anything that far undersized. I was expecting 0.003"-0.005" max.
snowman357
Member
Different thickness of brass, difference as to when taper starts and variation in length of cases all are all problems with using mixed brass and can cause different tension levels on bullets. Set dies up with the thinnest and shortest brass you have. I sort my mixed brass and try not to have mixed brass.
An easy test to see if the sizing die is too large, or the expander is too large, or both.
Size the same brand case and seat a bullet without using the expander. Does it have better/good neck tension now? The expander is too large.
If the neck tension is still poor, the sizer is too large.
Size the same brand case and seat a bullet without using the expander. Does it have better/good neck tension now? The expander is too large.
If the neck tension is still poor, the sizer is too large.
CQB45ACP
Member
And I was too lazy to think it through
Jim Watson
Member
Just a sizing die. The rest of your regular set is ok as long as the expander is not too large.
Yep, do the test and you'll know for sure.
The magazine may be held too low, causing the bullet to hit the feed ramp. That happened to me, and the deep seating of the bullet blew the sidewall.
The first magazine release held the magazine so high, closing the slide knocked the magazine out of the pistol
Rock Island sent me a mag release that lowered the magazine. This is the first magazine release.
Oh the second magazine release lowered the magazine all right. I could feel a bump, bump as the pistol chambered each round. However, nothing bad happened until this:
gas went down the magazine well, blew out the magazine floorplate, spring, and the rounds that were in the magazine. That one on the right, gas pushed the bullet in the case!
gas also cracked a set of pretty coco bolo grips I had installed. I think it was a good thing that the magazine had a removable base, as when it popped, it probably kept pressures down. If I had a GI mag with a welded base, I might have gone home with those pretty coco bolo grips embedded in my palm. Always wear your shooting glasses! Something hit the bench, and then my jaw, and I had a bruise. Something hit the roof, maybe after hitting the bench, or floor!
These modern pistols made of 4140 survive events that would have KO'd older 1911's. The slide was jammed midway, had to hit it to get it forward. I field stripped the pistol, wiped all the powder residue out, re oiled, reassembled, and continued shooting. I eventually shot all the rest of that batch of ammunition, no problems
But thinking the blow out might be due to me, I carefully reloaded a can of ammunition, same everything, and cut the charge. Everything was good until I had another high pressure incident with the slide jammed back and the primer extruded into the firing pin hole. That decided it for me. I purchased an EGW higher magazine release. That seems to have fixed the problem, no blown case heads to date.
I will suggest, buy a set of Pachmayr rubber grips till you get this solved. Pachmayr grips have a steel mesh in them, and that may keep your palm from being pierced by grip panels if you have a kaboom like mine
And I do recommend magazines with removable bases. Might make a difference in gas venting.
Still shooting the thing, Shoots to point of aim at 25 yards with my ammunition. Don't want to send it back to the factory because I might get one that does not. New G10 grip. Grip is some laminated epoxy thing, should be stronger than wood.
The first magazine release held the magazine so high, closing the slide knocked the magazine out of the pistol
Rock Island sent me a mag release that lowered the magazine. This is the first magazine release.
Oh the second magazine release lowered the magazine all right. I could feel a bump, bump as the pistol chambered each round. However, nothing bad happened until this:
gas went down the magazine well, blew out the magazine floorplate, spring, and the rounds that were in the magazine. That one on the right, gas pushed the bullet in the case!
gas also cracked a set of pretty coco bolo grips I had installed. I think it was a good thing that the magazine had a removable base, as when it popped, it probably kept pressures down. If I had a GI mag with a welded base, I might have gone home with those pretty coco bolo grips embedded in my palm. Always wear your shooting glasses! Something hit the bench, and then my jaw, and I had a bruise. Something hit the roof, maybe after hitting the bench, or floor!
These modern pistols made of 4140 survive events that would have KO'd older 1911's. The slide was jammed midway, had to hit it to get it forward. I field stripped the pistol, wiped all the powder residue out, re oiled, reassembled, and continued shooting. I eventually shot all the rest of that batch of ammunition, no problems
But thinking the blow out might be due to me, I carefully reloaded a can of ammunition, same everything, and cut the charge. Everything was good until I had another high pressure incident with the slide jammed back and the primer extruded into the firing pin hole. That decided it for me. I purchased an EGW higher magazine release. That seems to have fixed the problem, no blown case heads to date.
I will suggest, buy a set of Pachmayr rubber grips till you get this solved. Pachmayr grips have a steel mesh in them, and that may keep your palm from being pierced by grip panels if you have a kaboom like mine
And I do recommend magazines with removable bases. Might make a difference in gas venting.
Still shooting the thing, Shoots to point of aim at 25 yards with my ammunition. Don't want to send it back to the factory because I might get one that does not. New G10 grip. Grip is some laminated epoxy thing, should be stronger than wood.
NMexJim
Member
Yes, Wilson Pistol Max are cut to max chamber dims where others are cut to max cartridge dims. Chamber dims are smaller than cartridge dims. Either would have found an unsized case.
I, and many on here, recommend Wilson gages.
CQB45ACP
Member
Yep
CQB45ACP
Member
Interesting. Was it Lee, EGW? They both advertise .003” under.
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41 Mag
Member
I ran into a similar issue while loading a bunch of 9mm. I hadn't been loading it but a couple of months and found out all brass was not created equal.
My solution was to get the Lee "U" die and just run all my range pick ups through it on the first go round. This did result in that wasp look, but after that it seemed to cure things. I figured my chambers were tighter than some and combined with the lower pressure loads I was using things just evened out.
I still separate by head stamps, and generally only load upper end stuff in new or once fired major brand cases.
My solution was to get the Lee "U" die and just run all my range pick ups through it on the first go round. This did result in that wasp look, but after that it seemed to cure things. I figured my chambers were tighter than some and combined with the lower pressure loads I was using things just evened out.
I still separate by head stamps, and generally only load upper end stuff in new or once fired major brand cases.
CQB45ACP
Member
Not sure what I would’ve done. Was it a new pistol? Used, but first time with your ammo?The magazine may be held too low, causing the bullet to hit the feed ramp. That happened to me, and the deep seating of the bullet blew the sidewall.
The first magazine release held the magazine so high, closing the slide knocked the magazine out of the pistol
Rock Island sent me a mag release that lowered the magazine. This is the first magazine release.
Oh the second magazine release lowered the magazine all right. I could feel a bump, bump as the pistol chambered each round. However, nothing bad happened until this:
gas went down the magazine well, blew out the magazine floorplate, spring, and the rounds that were in the magazine. That one on the right, gas pushed the bullet in the case!
gas also cracked a set of pretty coco bolo grips I had installed. I think it was a good thing that the magazine had a removable base, as when it popped, it probably kept pressures down. If I had a GI mag with a welded base, I might have gone home with those pretty coco bolo grips embedded in my palm. Always wear your shooting glasses! Something hit the bench, and then my jaw, and I had a bruise. Something hit the roof, maybe after hitting the bench, or floor!
These modern pistols made of 4140 survive events that would have KO'd older 1911's. The slide was jammed midway, had to hit it to get it forward. I field stripped the pistol, wiped all the powder residue out, re oiled, reassembled, and continued shooting. I eventually shot all the rest of that batch of ammunition, no problems
But thinking the blow out might be due to me, I carefully reloaded a can of ammunition, same everything, and cut the charge. Everything was good until I had another high pressure incident with the slide jammed back and the primer extruded into the firing pin hole. That decided it for me. I purchased an EGW higher magazine release. That seems to have fixed the problem, no blown case heads to date.
I will suggest, buy a set of Pachmayr rubber grips till you get this solved. Pachmayr grips have a steel mesh in them, and that may keep your palm from being pierced by grip panels if you have a kaboom like mine
And I do recommend magazines with removable bases. Might make a difference in gas venting.
Still shooting the thing, Shoots to point of aim at 25 yards with my ammunition. Don't want to send it back to the factory because I might get one that does not. New G10 grip. Grip is some laminated epoxy thing, should be stronger than wood.
I never shoot my ammo in a new pistol not that I don’t trust my ammo but I don’t want to argue with pistol maker if something happens. (Okay and maybe I don’t fully trust my ammo.)
Regardless, I might leave the gun, but keep the cannoli.
Jim Watson
Member
Just one of the many failures and faults I would never have thought of if I did not read gun boards. Guess I have been lucky.
?
The other way 'round. The minimum chamber must accept the maximum cartridge.
Wilson says: "This gage will measure Max Case Length, Max Cartridge dimensions and Max Loaded Round Length."
Frex .45 ACP cartridge diameter .200" from head is .476" maximum, chamber diameter .200 from breech face is .4796" minimum.
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JCSC
Member
I think I will pick up the Wilson gauge and make sure I size my brass!
Thankfully when I checked the lot I found no others.
I did look at underside dies and saw that it is .002-.003 smaller. Not sure how that matters when you stuff the same expander thru the case, but I will give it a try.
I took a few other loaded rounds and ran a set back test. I started at 1.25” length and lost .005”-.010 every time I chambered. I found that once the bullets reached 1.200 it would not set back any more.
I don’t think I have any other issues, aside from missing a pc of brass.
Thankfully when I checked the lot I found no others.
I did look at underside dies and saw that it is .002-.003 smaller. Not sure how that matters when you stuff the same expander thru the case, but I will give it a try.
I took a few other loaded rounds and ran a set back test. I started at 1.25” length and lost .005”-.010 every time I chambered. I found that once the bullets reached 1.200 it would not set back any more.
I don’t think I have any other issues, aside from missing a pc of brass.
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Blue68f100
Member
It was a Lee US die compared to a std Lee set.
CQB45ACP
Member
That’s what I use but haven’t actually measured it. But as I said (and just dbl checked) on website they say it’s .003” under.
If you wanted to go through the hassle, I suppose you could get replacement or maybe refund.
CQB45ACP
Member
I don’t know how it matters either when using same standard sized expander (as I do), but it works. Might have to do with brass elasticity?
I’ve used on 9mm & 45acp for several months.
ballman6711
Member
Wilson sells a few different types of gauge. I bought a max cartridge gauge, so if my ammo fits my gauge it should fit any SAMMI spec chamber. They also sell a min chamber gauge, which would be just a touch larger.
Do your research before buying a gauge, and ask any questions you may have.
chris
Jim Watson
Member
Right, they also make a Case Gage which would be useful to those of you who single stage or short circuit a progressive with a lot of "prep."
The pistol was recent, but the ammunition was a load I developed well before. I am shooting up a keg of AA#5 that I have, and this is the load, and its velocity, in the RIA
With a 230 grain bullet, lead or otherwise, I tailor my "ball" loads to 800 fps. Which is the velocity of the original 1910 rounds used in the testing of the Colt 1910 and Savage 1907 which lead to the adoption of the 1911 Colt.
the reduced load which also showed pressure problems gave this velocity
When I had high pressure indications with a 700 fps load, I decided it was not the load. I also noticed bullet set back upon the ejection of unfired rounds.
My load of 7.8 grains AA#5 shoots well in all the 1911's I use it in
Tisas 1911
Last week at the range, I shot up a couple of hundred rounds of the stuff in a Colt series 80 and in a Tisas Service Special. So I am very confident based on the ammunition cans of this load I have shot, that high pressure indications are either going to be due to a double charge, or bullet set back.
It is easy to test the affect of bullet set back. Smash the bullet into the case and fire it over a chronograph. The velocity will be higher, and you will see evidence of high pressure from the reaction of the mechanism. Might be bad, so use a disposable firearm. One you don't mind replacing.
Shoot enough rounds long enough, and shoot in enough matches, and you will see and experience all sorts of ammunition issues. And hear from others about kabooms and negligent discharges. Last week, one shooting bud at the range told me of a negligent discharge of a pistol competitor at a match he attended. After the match, the competitor was home, and managed to shoot himself in his tibia with the 1911 he had used in the day. Don't know any more particulars, these things don't make the papers, but word gets around.
Last week, went to the house to the old Gun Club President to exchange books. We give each books we have finished reading. That was when I found out that he had bulged the barrel on a New Model Blackhawk in 45 LC. He lodged a 200 grain bullet in the barrel. The thing is about squibs, to the shooter, they don't sound different, nor do they necessarily feel different. If you are lucky the squib lodges in the throat and prevents rotation of the cylinder. If you are unlucky, the squib lodges about half way down the barrel and you don't know one is there. Until you shoot the next round. That's what happened and President said the recoil was so severe the barrel hit him in the forehead.
I have seen a number of squibs in 2700 Bullseye and have learned to carry a brass rod to drop down the barrel, and to double check that I don't have a bore obstruction when I have an alibi, and don't remember if I ejected an empty. With all the distractions and information you have to provide to match officials, it is easy to forget the exact malfunction. If you ever manually eject an empty from your semi auto, don't chamber a new round until you have checked to see if there is a squib in the barrel. There might be.
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1. Try a different FL sizer
2. Try a undersized lee 45 acp sizer
3. Taper crimp should measure .468
4. Try different brass
I have never had set back issues
I use hornady xtp's .451 and 200 grain lead swc .452.
Case neck tension should hold the bullets not ceimp.
2. Try a undersized lee 45 acp sizer
3. Taper crimp should measure .468
4. Try different brass
I have never had set back issues
I use hornady xtp's .451 and 200 grain lead swc .452.
Case neck tension should hold the bullets not ceimp.
WTM (wall thickness matters)!
With mixed brass, when crimping to remove the mouth flare, the thickest case wall can swage the bullet to undersize. And plated bullets usually are easier to deform.
NMexJim
Member
Sounds like you've solved your problem. I'll add that when I run a fresh batch of rounds, I take one and push the bullet tip into the edge of my bench to see if I've got a good grip on the bullet. Stupid simple, but it works for me. Really, if you've been checking your case dimensions during sizing and expanding and then your final "crimp" dimensions, you really shouldn't have an issue.
I'll add that since the Wilson Pistol Max gage is cut to max cartridge dimensions, you may find your finished rounds hard to push into the gage. I have a set of gages that are chamber-cut as well, but I set my dies w/ a Wilson.
I'll add that since the Wilson Pistol Max gage is cut to max cartridge dimensions, you may find your finished rounds hard to push into the gage. I have a set of gages that are chamber-cut as well, but I set my dies w/ a Wilson.
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JCSC
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