.45/70 325gr. vs .243 100gr.

[Shawnee]

Isn't interesting that.........

The 325gr. .45/70 Gov. cartridge has only 340 ft/lbs. more energy at 100 yards than the 100gr. 243

and

at 200yds. the .243 has 35 ft/lbs. more than the .45/70 Gov.

and

at 300yds. the .243 has 220 more ft/lbs. than the .45/70 Gov.


yet some... er... people insist the .243 is only good for "small deer within 150yds".

 

[MountainWalk]

Energy doesnt tell the whole story, and neither does velocity. Mass and momentum, two entirely different properties, mean more to me. I will not let a client hunt elk witha 243. Most aren't offended when I suggest they use my 30-06 or 338.

 

[Rampant_Colt]

Mass + momentum + sectional density


would you rather shoot an enraged wild animal bent on stomping you using a .45/70, or .243 that has the same muzzle energy?

It's a no-brainer

energy figures are only part of the equation

 

[CSA 357]

I like my bullets pre expanded! Give me the .458

 

[nickE10mm]

With accurate hits, a .243 with a 95-100gr bullet is good on deer out to 250-300 yards. That being said, the 45-70 is a different kind of cartridge. As its been said, energy is not the whole story and is only a function of mass and velocity. Sectional density and momentum are more important, as is shot placement. I'd feel MUCH better with a .45-70 on Elk.

 

[Shawnee]

"With accurate hits, a .243 with a 95-100gr bullet is good on deer out to 250-300 yards"

I promise you the .243 with 95-100gr. bullets is as deadly as Sin on deer well beyond 300yds.

But the mass/momentum points are correct, of course, along with energy transfer, frontal surface etc. And the .243 is certainly no Elk caliber.

I've long thought that a 350gr. .45 caliber bullet ambling along about 1700fps (mv) would make a grand deer/black bear cartridge (and Elk-in-Timber cartridge) - partly because it would have a lot of "swat" and yet have a recoil sufficiently below that of the .45/70 Gov. that it could be chambered in a little lighter rifle. I suppose the .45/70 Gov. can be loaded down to 1600-1700fps but sometimes "downloads" actually develop unacceptable pressures, not to mention in some calibers the downloading seems to hurt accuracy.

What say Y'All ? Any of you .45/70 fans throttle back on your loads a bit ?




DUH ! I think I may have just described the .454 Casull with cast bullets and the Puma.
Oh well.

 

[fireman 9731]

most of my 45-70 loads a fairly hot... whats the fun in lighter loads?

 

[nickE10mm]

Shawnee - I agree about the .243 being deadly way past 300 yards but in a public internet forum, I try and only post info that I don't think anyone will take the wrong way. Its all about shot placement, either way.

 

[Shawnee]

Nick... I know what you mean.


Any of you guys using the Puma in .454 Casull ???

Let's have some reports on that rifle/caliber !

 

[achildofthesky]

What is your basis for comparison, which ammo brand and load? Most commonly available 45-70 loads are loaded to the lowest common denominator, old low pressure rifles. 243 is a decent round for deer and it makes a dandy varminter as well. 45-70 is a decent round for deer and larger game at woods ranges but a pretty poor choice for serious varminting or long range hunting. I like big honking rifles slinging big hunks of lead at modest velocities in the deer woods or better yet a 30-06.

Have fun
Patty

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Patty...

There really is not much comparison between the .243 and the .45/70 Gov.
They are just two different beasts. I made the post mostly just to generate the discussion of the differences between "small/fast" and "large/slow". While both can be effective, each has its' unique benefit and its' fans.

In thick cover, and especially on tougher game like black bears and hogs, the "big/slow" cartridges shine at their brightest. That's not to say a .243 or 257 Robts. won't work well though - just that the bonecrunchers like the .44 and .45 calibers are really "in their element" under those conditions.

One thing about both black bears and hogs is that their hides and layers of fat under the hide are heavy and "loose" and thus can close off a bullet hole when the animal moves, and that can make for a sparse blood trail. That sorta makes a case for using the bigger caliber bullets.

The shooter's dilemma is to find such a caliber in a rifle that is handy in the crud yet doesn't detach their retinas every time they touch the rascal off.

 

[jmorris]

I suppose the .45/70 Gov. can be loaded down to 1600-1700fps

In 1873 the brand new 45-70 round was loaded with black powder (70 grains max thus the "70") and velocities ran from 1100-1500 fps. Back then they didn’t have gee wiz bullet construction, this made terminal ballistics pretty simple; the bigger and heavier the projectile the greater the killing power. Between 1873 and 1884 the 45-70 accounted for more Bison (weighing 930-2200#’s) than the 243 has deer since its introduction in 1955. Thousands a day were killed until only a few hundred were left. That pile the man is standing on in the photo below is made from skulls.

Of course I’m not going to ride my covered wagon to work today as there are better ways of doing things nowadays. But the 45-70 and its rainbow trajectory can still get the job done in certain cases.

Now I’m not knocking the 243, as it’s certainly killed many deer (along with the 22lr). However, if you hangout in hunting forums on the internet long enough you’ll run across the guy that has taken water buffalo with a squirt gun.


the photo is here
http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/...tion=view&current=Bison_skull_pile_ca1870.png

 

[Shawnee]

WOW !!! That pic is almost unreal !!!!!

 

[jmorris]

yeah, but just think what it would look like if they had the 243 back then.

 

[Shawnee]

Yeah... all those skulls would have .244" bullet holes in them.

 

[Art Eatman]

I guess I've always been sorta incurious, so long as what I try actually does work. I get curious mostly when something doesn't work.

A .243 works. From what bunches of folks have said, these last forty or fifty years, so does a .45-70.

As long as you're eatin' Bambi, I guess it's six of one, half-dozen of the other.

 

[ishredinmysleep]

.243

ive never had a problem taking big deer with a .243 i shot a thick bodied deer at 315 yards dropped it right there the farthest a deer has ever ran when hit by my .243 is 35 yards most took a step and fell over