45/70 BP in Contender

[Harleytoo]

So, as I posted in another thread, I am getting back into BP shooting mostly with my ROA's but I have a soft spot for 45/70.

So, I searched about and found a stainless barrel for my Contender and plan to run with BP cartridge loads.

Has anyone done this out of a short barrel Contender or Contender like gun who might have some information on proper loading?

I have a bunch of Goex FFG powder to use up for this.

Thoughts?

 

[BCRider]

Well, the barrel will certainly take the pressure. A BP load in .45-70 will feel like a mouse fart next to some of the smokeless shoulder slammers I've seen and shot from an Encore in .45-70.

There's only two things you need to do. First is fill the whole casing up and compact the powder enough that it doesn't develop any looseness or air gap in the powder. Second is to melt out the stock lube in the cast bullets and replace it with a BP friendly lube to avoid the petroleum products in the waxes turning to a sticky tar in the bore.

To aid in settling the maximum amount of powder into the cases the usual tool is a drop tube. Between the drop tube and some mild compression when seating the bullet you'll get a good charge packing that'll be as high as you're able to manage without compressing the powder while the case is supported by a compression jacket.

You'll never make it to a full 70 grains because the walls and heads on the cases are more full than back in the old days. But you should be able to get up into the mid 60's. This assumes the classic 405gn bullet.

If you're a handy sort you could make up a drop tube. You'll want a 30 to 36 inch length of some sort of metal tube so it doesn't build up any static charge. If you can find steel oil or brake line which has a 3/16 to 1/4 inch ID and a good flare on the one end that would be awesome. Use the flare on the case mouth and at the other end fix a funnel of some sort. Hold all this in some form of stand.

Alternately if you get a 5/8 NF screw and cut off a section of it and drill it to let you press fit or solder the tube in place you can screw this threaded end drop tube into the powder/flaring die if you're using a Lee set. Just remove the funnel nut that they come with.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

So out of curiosity, is this a Contender Pistol or Long Gun with a shoulder stock?

My first thought was huzzah! 45/70 Pistol!

But sounds like fun either way.

 

[Don McDowell]

Loading black in the 45-70 is pretty straight forward. Prime your cases and then weigh/ measure out 70 grs of that 2f, then while holding the scale pan a few inches above your funnel slowly pour that powder in the case. Then thumb a thin wad (this can be anything from wax paper to thick cork) over the powder. With your M die or similar expanding die in the press, run that charged case into the die until the wad is far enough down from the case mouth to let your bullet seat without putting pressure on the nose and deforming it. (that will give you some spectacular leading problems). The bullet should be lube with a good blackpowder lube but the regular lube will work, but it will be mandatory to wipe between shots with a oil/water solution. Then when finished shooting wash your cases in detergent and water, let them dry, run them thru the tumbler and get ready to do it all over again.

 

[Harleytoo]

It is a 12" barrel, so Pistol.

 

[Harleytoo]

Don, thanks for the detail, from what I understand (and from past trial and error) there is no way to get 70 grains of modern powder in a case. The measurement of powder has changed and the composition has changed as well.

I believe around 40 grains by measure, from some material I have read is about max with wad and 405 grain bullet (possibly a bit of filler).

I do remember the need for using a drop tube, which I have a long brass drop tube for that to provide a bit of natural compression. The remaining compression should be light by wad and bullet. Of course this will require a bit of experimentation.

Bullets I will be using are specifically lubed for BP, so that will not be an issue.

 

[Harleytoo]

I will do some testing over the holiday weekend to verify how much by weight and volume will fit in a case (Goex FFg) and let you guys know.

Since I originally was going to use this setup for a Sharps I had I have a pretty expensive seating die specifically made for 45/70 BP shooting.

 

[Don McDowell]

Not sure how you determined you can't get 70 grs in a 45-70 case, but I can tell you with certainty we shoot something close to or over a full 25 lb case of blackpowder , mostly 2f, using 70 grs with 480-535 gr bullets in competition every year. With the original 392 gr bullet I regularly loaded 74 grs in Winchester cases for my offhand load. 72 grs is pretty standard for me to use when loading paper patch bullets.
In your 12 inch barrel I would probably not even bother with black, about all you'll get is a huge muzzle flash and blast, and a dirty gun.

 

[iiranger]

To my surprise, Harvey Donaldson began competing with the muzzle loaded, single shot black powder rifles of the late 1800s... for this discussion I would add that per his writings he said they sought best accuracy by "reducing the charge," yes, REDUCING the charge. Then they filled the case with filler. Ground grain was common. You do not want "air space." That is dangerous. For a 12 inch barrel, I suspect you might not want 40 grains of black.

Other thought, E. Keith wrote of having a .45/90. He wrote that he loaded 10 grains of smokeless, SR4759 I think, before loading the black powder. No thought of greater power, rather the smokeless would "blow out" more of the black powder crud and make cleaning the gun a bit easier... Luck, happy trails.

 

[Don McDowell]

Some Scheutzen shooters did indeed use reduced charges and fillers in their small bore rifles and short distances.
The purpose of duplexing with smokeless began when the primers of the time would not reliably ignite the smokeless powder , they dropped a small charge of black in the bottom or the case and then the smokeless. The primer would then ingnite the black and that gave enough heat and spark to reliably ignite the smokeless.

 

[Malamute]

Listen to Don, he knows what hes talking about with black in cartridges.

Way back, I loaded black in modern cases and was able to get 65 grs pretty easily in them with the Lyman 420 gr bullet. I didnt know about drop tubes or compression dies. Shouldnt be any great issue to get more in with those things being known. 75 grs was possible with the 300 gr jacketed Hornady bullet. I used 3-F.

Whoever thought that only 40 grs would fit in modern cases was mistaken.

 

[Don McDowell]

I know some shooters that drop in as much as 80 grs of 3f when shooting paper patch bullets that are only seated into the case a tenth of an inch.

 

[Jim Watson]

Bill Bagwell aka rdnck was the field man for Goex for some time. His recommendation for a starting load was to dump the case level full of loose powder. Weigh what you get.
Do actual loading with a drop tube and a compression die so as to leave room to seat the bullet. That might not automatically be the best load, but it will get you started.

Me? I loaded what Kenny Wasserburger said to in .38-55 and Tom Jones used in .40-65. Both loads shoot fine; I have tried others and never beat them.

All the duplex loading I have read about - from say Harry Pope forward - uses 5 - 10% smokeless over the primer, balance black. That is said to be enough nitro to keep the bp fouling down to where you don't have to blow or wipe. The only time I tried it, I did not have a good combination and accuracy was pretty sad.

 

[Stony]

No doubt you can get it to go bang for you, but accuracy will be another matter. I am just guessing the twist might be a little fast for it???
If that is the case, and you are trying to burn 70 Gr. of black out of that short barrel, I wouldn't expect much in the way of accuracy.
On the other hand, if you just want a flashy, smokey attention getter..it should work fine.

 

[Don McDowell]

Ned Roberts Schuetzen Rifle book goes into the detail of duplexing prior to Popes arrival on the scene. He also explains screening the powder, and it wasn't blackpowder those guys were screening..

 

[rodwha]

The Colt Walker did OK with 60 grns using a 9" barrel. 12" may not be as efficient as a rifle barrel but I'd think it would do OK. Not to say there won't be a big ball of fire as well, but that's just a bonus!

 

[dickydalton]

The Colt Walker did OK with 60 grns using a 9" barrel. 12" may not be as efficient as a rifle barrel but I'd think it would do OK. Not to say there won't be a big ball of fire as well, but that's just a bonus!

There you go, But, remember your Contender doesn't weigh 5 pounds and you'd better hang on!

 

[rodwha]

If you have a pistol chambered in .45-70 Gov't you must enjoy a bit of punishment!

 

[Pete D.]

BP

My suggestion is to try the carbine load of 55 grains of BP and a filler along with a 300 grain bullet. I use a powder filler called PuffLon and a grease cookie of two 0.030 Walter's wads with an 1/8" disc of beeswax between.
Pete

 

[Pete D.]

fun

If you have a pistol chambered in .45-70 Gov't you must enjoy a bit of punishment

LOL.
Quick story.... years ago I bought a .45-70 barrel for my Contender. I was using smokeless loads only then. One late autumn afternoon toward dusk I was at a range with the gun shooting at bowling pins 100 yards away. The muzzle blast in the dying light of day was impressive, as was barrel lift from recoil. A fellow down the line ventured over and asked "what is that?" I told him. He shook his head and said "why don't you just hit yourself with a hammer?"
Pete

 

[CANNONMAN]

I got one of those in a 14". Never thought of trying this until today. What fun! I just love to hand this to my friends who "think" they want to try it. About 20% hand it back after seeing the cartridge. 'bout 80% never get near anything whilst shooting it and 95% don't really care to ever pick it up ever again. I love this thing!

 

[rodwha]

I have to imagine a .45-70 through a handgun would be much more than I'd want to handle! The only gun I shot and didn't want again was a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 Carbine without ear protection prior to leaving the lease on a hunting trip. Talk about a painful earpiercing crack!