.45-70 Lever Cast Question

[cat_IT_guy]

So, question for the seasoned 45-70 reloaders.

I have a box of MBC cast 405gr bullets. Awesome lump of lead to send downrange.

But, Im curious. The only load data I can find for 4064 & 3031 for a 405gr cast bullet stops at Trapdoor levels (highest pressure at max load for either running around 23,000 CUP) and around 1700fps out of a 24" barrel. When I check the Lever gun load data (higher pressures), the 405s are poorly represented, or missing entirely.

So, my question is, what's the limiting factor? It wouldnt seem to be pressure, as my lever gun should be able to stand a good deal more punishment than a trapdoor. Is it the cast bullet? Is it case capacity?

I havent tried the 3031 yet, but my 4064 loads of 48.5gr under these bullets are running around 1400fps out of my 18.5" Henry. I have zero need for more power, but I cant help my curiosity. Can one, with reasonable certainty, exceed trapdoor pressure levels with these bullets without running into issues? OR is there some other variable I'm failing to consider?

If any of you all have experience in this realm, I'd love to hear about it.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just because you can doesn't mean you have to. There is no reason to beat yourself up with heavy 45-70 loads when Trapdoor velocities/pressures will work just as well. I used the same bullet from MBC and the same load in my Trapdoor and Marlin Levergun. The dead deer had no idea it was hit with a trapdoor load lol.

Of course you can give it a try or even get some of those MBC coated bullets and push them even harder.

 

[cat_IT_guy]

Just because you can doesn't mean you have to. There is no reason to beat yourself up with heavy 45-70 loads when Trapdoor velocities/pressures will work just as well.

Granted. Question has nothing to do with need. Steel, paper, and water-filled 2 liters I'll be shooing wont know the difference. Nevertheless.... my curiosity remains. 95% (or more) of the 45-70 loads I shoot Im sure will be range / cowboy specials, 14.0gr Trail Boss behind a 300gr cast bullet at something around 1200fps.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I got ya now, no offense meant...

I broke out some old notes and looked for loads I tested that were standard pressure, not trapdoor loads. (and not Ruger #1 or #3 loads)
With that 405gr cast bullet I really like 34.0gr AA5744. (You can go to 36.0gr)
I also tried 38.0gr IMR4198 with good success. (at or near the top end)

I wrote down future loads to try:
with RL7 40.0 to 48.0gr.
with IMR3031 41.5 to 49.0gr.
with Varget 48.5 to 54.0gr.

I hope that helps.

Remember, mistakes in posting numbers can and will happen. If something looks wrong, don't do it!

 

[cat_IT_guy]

I got ya now, no offense meant...

And none taken. Half my enjoyment of reloading is cost per shot savings the other half is tinkering & experimentation.

 

[cpt-t]

cat_IT_guy: We are 45-70 poor at our house. And our go to load for the last 5 to 6 years is, 35gr of IMR 30-31 and a 405gr Hard Cast LRNFP bullet at about 1250fps to 1350fps. This a very comfortable load to shoot at the range, plink with, and hunt with. My Son and I have also shot several deer and a bunch of pigs with it. And we get full penetration side by side or end to end every time.
ken

 

[RecoilRob]

I've got some Lyman 425's loaded over RL-7 (48grns IIRC) and they are damn stout! With a gascheck they leave the barrel clean, but a plain based bullet might not allow itself to be driven so hard without leaving lots of lead in the barrel.

We don't shoot many of the maximum RL-7 loads because they're bordering on punishing and there's no need to perferate paper or even animals with such velocity. I read somewhere that a good heavy hard-cast bullet can drive through large animals like moose from stem to stern and this even without driving them to red-faced maximums.

It's always nice to have a few BOOMERS in the range bag just in case someone wants to experience the full potential of the 45-70 in the Marlin GG, but I mostly shoot Trapdoor level loads in it which are so much fun to shoot.

 

[redbullitt]

1500fps 405g WFN bullet is plenty for me. I imagine it will shoot through just about anything you need AND you should be able to get by without a gas check at that speed or a bit slower.

Getting them going faster really starts to thump ya. That is why its a good cartridge. You can load it how you need it. Unique will drive that 405g bullet through a deer still very easily and have minimal recoil and blast. Slower powders can go through more deer lol.

I have had good luck with h4198 FWIW. 405 WFN PB is what usually gets shot, but 325 hornady lever bullets and nosler 300g ballistic tips get used for hunting sometimes if I want expansion.

 

[cat_IT_guy]

I bought some 3031 to try based on recommendations. I'm glad I did. Despite only showing a bit higher mv in manuals when compared with 4064, I saw much better velocity with max loads. Most manuals appear to test 45-70 with a 24" barrel. My Henry has a 18.5" barrel so some velocity loss is to be expected. Apparently 3031 loses much less in a shorter barrel as compared to 4064.

4064 @ 48.5gr got me to about 1400, so figure a max load of 49.5 might have (optimistically) hit 1500.

3031 @ max of 48.5gr averaged 1708fps, very nearly what manuals suggest. Made my afternoon..... And have a sore shoulder to show for it since I worked up to the max load.

Both loads running same MBC 405gr cast bullet.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I love a happy ending lol.
Thanks for the update. It seems 3031 isn't only for the 30-30 which is a good thing...

 

[ericuda]

Did you notice any leading with the load of 48.5 3031? I have shot that same load with mbc 405 coated but unsuccessfylly over the chrono. Uncomfortable for me shooting off the bench with my guide gun.

 

[BigBore44]

Can't speak for everyone, but heavy 405gr loads are best shot freehand, off sticks, or off a leadsled when working/developing higher end loads. OP, I love 3031, 4198, and Unique for my 45-70 with big pills. But I've recently discovered H4895. Tried a few moderate loads, a few at/near max, and a few 70% off max. Fantastic powder. It won't replace the others. But it sets right beside them.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Funny thing is, with the 45-70 there are MANY powders that work well and they span a wide range of burn rates.

I have tried 2400, SR4759, Trail Boss, Unique, 4895, 4064, 3031, 4198, AA5744 and probably a few more I can't remember right now. All the powders I tried produced acceptable results. My current favorite is AA5744 because it's accurate for me and it's soft shooting while generating good velocities. What's not to like?

 

[grubbylabs]

I have even used H-335 in the 45-70, what a great round.


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[Jlr2267]

Reloder 7 is another good powder with the 405gr bullet