Keep the 12 ga and get the 45-70 with a 2-7X (LONG EYE RELIEF) scope. I have the 444 Marlin and it is hard to shoot without a long eye relief scope. It is hard to shoot accurately knowing you are going to get your eyebrow creased!
This continues to be an interesting and informative thread. Thanks to all for sharing your opinions and knowledge. I'm learning lots. (In particular, that I may ultimately want a guide gun in .45/70, but not necessarily for the reasons I thought I did when I started this thread. )
It's interesting to see two radically different tools - in this case a shotgun and a rifle - compared and contrasted for a particular job and come out (from my perspective) relatively evenly.
Now a request: I need a better education about slugs. Would someone(s) please post a good page or four (THR shotgun forum or other) on slugs, particularly about the different types (e.g., Brenneke, Foster, Sabbot, etc). A review offering comparison and contrast, pros and cons for different types of barrel (rifled v. smooth) would be most useful.
(Yes, I know I can use search function in the shotguns forum, but I suspect some of you have a good page or two already bookmarked...)
I spent 10 days in the AK wilds last year. Some of my guides use shotties. 1st round is buckshot to the face to give the bear pause, followed by slugs. Sounded pretty good to me.
It's interesting to see two radically different tools - in this case a shotgun and a rifle - compared and contrasted for a particular job and come out (from my perspective) relatively evenly.
I do not see them as relatively even. Although a 12 gauge pump is a hard hitting reliable stopper Shotgun shells especially slug loads are very hard to waterproof and AK is a very wet environment. If I were to trust my life to a shotgun it better have water tight ammo. I have had shells get wet duck hunting and fail to fire. When that happens duck hunting you lose dinner, if it happens in a bear defense role YOU ARE DINNER!
The rim of the 45/70 is a good bit larger than the rim on a 450 Marlin. I don't think you're going to get 45/70 to chamber in a .450 Marlin rifle.
Marlin created the 450 Marlin to take advantage of the improvements in receiver strength. the two cartridges share exactly the same internal dimensions.
The .450 Marlin actually has slightly less case capacity (about 3 grains less) than the 45/70. Which means that:
1. The aren't identical in internal dimensions.
2. You can get more velocity out of the 45/70 than the .450 Marlin with the same powder/bullet & at the same pressure.
Which gets us back to the original comment. There's a much wider variety of loads available for the 45/70. Unless you reload, the 45/70 is a much more versatile choice than the .450. And if you do reload, you can get more performance from the 45/70 than the .450 due to it's larger case capacity.
As far as the 12ga vs the 45/70, you're going to get better accuracy, longer range and better penetration with the 45/70--dunno if there are any practical differences there in terms of the application under consideration. Recoil is pretty similar. I'd feel reasonably well armed with either.
After looking at the comparison of the 4570 loaded at 1800 or 1900fps with a 405gr bullet of ANY configuration and a 1 ounce 12 guage slug at around 1600 fps is there any real comparison. The guy seems to want a defensive round for large furry critters with teeth, claws and bad attitudes. Professional African big game guides have been using the 12 guage slug as a backup FOR ALL DANGEROUS GAME for years. What does that tell you? I have a Rem. Model 1100 with a 21 inch barrel, rifle sights, and black synthectic stocks, and seven round magazine extension. It will shoot one hole clover leaf groups of magum 1 ounce slugs at fifty yards. I can't imagine having a better charge stopper on any dangerous game. Can you? JMHO
Funny thing, but historically neither of these were used much for serious work up there as the modern hot loads did not exist. When I was in Alaska thirty+ years ago what you saw were model 86 Winchesters modified to the 450 Alaskan wildcat load[a lot of them!] or bolt rifles in 375 or 458. Nobody that had a choice trusted the old foster type slugs to do the job in the shotgun or the factory loads in the 45-70.
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