.45-70s that meet these criteria?

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Jason_G

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So I just found out from my uncle that it is legal to hunt with a non-muzzle loading firearm during "muzzle loader" (really primitive weapons) season here, as long as they meet these criteria (I checked, I'm not just taking his word for it):

  • Must be breech loading
  • Must be single shot
  • Must have an exposed hammer
  • Must be chambered for a cartridge in production before 1900

So far I have seen an H&R Handi-Rifle in .45-70. What other rifles out there would meet these criteria?

ETA: I suppose it doesn't have to be .45-70, but I've always wanted one, so this is a good excuse!

Jason
 
my charles daley little sharps in 44-40 and my big sharps in 45-70,both good killers with in their range limits. eastbank.
 

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Where is the exposed hammer on the M-H?

The Springfield Trapdoor rifles and carbine in 45-70 and 50-70 are great guns to hunt with. The sling swivels make it easy to add a sling. (Slinging the rifle after getting your game can be handy.) Other rifles that meet the criteria include the Thompson Center, Ballards, Rossi (?) and a couple less well known makers (Peabody). But my choice would be, and is, the Trapdoor Springfield.
 
Do all handi rifles have exposed hammers? I think the make a 3030 version as well
 
1885 Winchester High Wall, original or replica
Ballard or Marlin Ballard, original or replica
Maynard rifle or carbine
Smith Carbine
Gallagher carbine
Snider rifle or carbine
Burnside carbine
Peabody rifle or carbine
Do your homework and you could come up with 100+ rifles and carbines that meet the criteria
 
The H&R is hard to beat. Check with GMSHOOTER on Bayoushooter.com for a good price on one.
 
Why not an original Springfield M1873 Trapdoor. I love mine, and love loading for it and shooting it as much as I can. I had an H&R and prefer my original by far. Nothing like traditional than an original. The bore on mine is still shiny and crisp and it shoots great.

I shoot a 405 grain bullet over 60 grains of Goex 2f.

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A lot of recommendations for the trap door.

So I am going to go ahead and pull the grenade and throw the pin here:

How weak is the action?

All I've ever heard my entire life is "you can't shoot full power loads in a trap door, because the action is too weak". Is that hogwash, truth, or is the truth somewhere in between?

I really love the idea of an old Springfield, but that (and the cost) has been my hang-up.

Jason
 
All I've ever heard my entire life is "you can't shoot full power loads in a trap door, because the action is too weak". Is that hogwash, truth, or is the truth somewhere in between?
Click to expand...

This is truth, but moreso somewhere in between. Depends what you consider "full power."

The Lyman 49 manual seperates .45-70 loads into three categories - Springfield Trapdoor, 1886/1895 lever guns, and Ruger No1 or No3 loads. If you compare the 405-500 grain cast bullet starting and max loads on the Trapdoor and lever gun loads, you'll see some near overlap. Essentially a Trapdoor max load is a starting load for the lever gun-level loads.

The H&R break action rifles have been rated to match the lever gun level loads according to all the reputable sources I have read. I regularly use 35.0 grains of 4198 under a 405gr cast bullet in my H&R's, which Lyman 49 lists as a max load for the Trapdoor (listed at 1463 FPS out of a 24" or 30" barrel; not sure which). While I'm not a hunter, I'm not sure I'd ever need more power than this for anything that walks or crawls on the North American continent. If you want to load hotter than that, the H&R gives you a lot of room to do so.

I can't say anything bad about the H&R's I've owned. They are a lot of rifle for the money. Very affordable and handy. The break-action design also makes for a very short action, making it very compact and well, again... handy. You could also buy 2 or 3 H&R's for the price of 1 Trapdoor. And if you're lugging it around for hunting, you might not feel as bad about getting little dings or scuffs on it as you might on a nice Trapdoor. Food for thought.

For more info on the H&R's, I'd suggest checking out the NEF/H&R forums over at Greybeard Outdoors. There's a lot of GREAT information collected there in their FAQ section.

I'll add that I would REALLY love to see a manufacturer like Rossi come along and make an affordable Trapdoor or Falling Block replica. Just hasn't happened yet.

I just ordered another .45-70 handi that should be here later this week. A 18.75" carbine:

pix710442547.jpg

I also previously owned one of the .45-70 Buffalo Classics, which I had really good results with, and sort of regret selling.

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Good luck.
 
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You can get a pretty good trapdoor for a grand or maybe less. Look around. Go to gunshows. Dicker on price. The H&R guns are good guns and great shooters, but I like the originals best.

Buy a reloading manual. It will outline trapdoor loads, Marlin loads and Ruger No 1 loads. Trapdoors can be shot with smokeless powders, but black is fun too and they are easy to clean. Go to a good gun store and buy 500 cast 405 grain bullets, then go to re-loaden. You can use 500 grainers too. Use magnum primers. You might open up the priming hole .096.

To load the 45/70's just pour in FFg until the case is nearly full, then cram in a wad and gently crush in the bullet. You don't have to use that much powder if you don't want to. you will find that the old trapdoor wants to shoot a bit high, but it'll shoot pretty close to the sight settings. The musket won't kick you much, but the carbine can. They loaded them lighter, of course.

I can tell you that of all the fun guns to shoot, IMO the trapdoor beats them all. A throaty boom, gentle recoil and big holes. If things are going right you can get that old war horse to shoot pretty well. Not a varmit rifle for sure, but buffalo? No prob.

They were made to shoot long range, and you can too. It's like shooting a howitzer. Try it at 1,000 yds. I don't know how high the bullet goes, but it probably has to file a flight plan. If you shoot an 1884, which most are, you will have a Buffington rear sight, which adjusts for bullet drift. Very cool. Messing with that Buffington rear sight is one of the reasons that they are so much fun to shoot.

Yeah, you can shoot high walls, and rolling blocks and all are fun. So are Sharps rifles. But I'm a trapdoor fan and originals can still be found. Gosh, I recall when they were dirt cheap. No longer.
 
In addition to the listed
Handi rifles Varrious sharps configurations(and manufacturers) and trap door springfields I once saw a conversion of the Snyder enfield to 45-70.

Aside from that all others are a variation of the above listed in one way or another.
 
The question of "how much pressure can the ??? stand" is one that comes up fairly often, especially regarding the Trapdoor. It looks weak and many suppose it is. In reality it is not nearly as weak as some would have you believe. Some very stout loads have been fired in them and continue to be fired.

The originals are are over 100 years old and the metalurgy in them is not what modern steels are but they are still powerful and accurate. The original powder and lead combination was meant to shoot through a horse and hit the enemy hiding behind it, at 100 yards. That is powerful enough for anything on this continent. And the Trapdoor was tested out to two miles and found adequate. Not MOA but adequate. I like mine and enjoy shooting them with black powder and cast lead. 72 grains of 2f with a 405 grain bullet makes a nice load.
 
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How about a T/C Contender or Encore? Then you could go from .45-70 to darn near any other caliber you wanted with a quick & easy bbl change.
 
Jason_G said:
A lot of recommendations for the trap door.

So I am going to go ahead and pull the grenade and throw the pin here:

How weak is the action?

All I've ever heard my entire life is "you can't shoot full power loads in a trap door, because the action is too weak". Is that hogwash, truth, or is the truth somewhere in between?
Click to expand...

You have to realize what "full power" loads means in 45-70. There are several levels of acceptable loads. There are a lot of converted black powder guns in 45-70 and the trapdoor is one of them. It was originally an after the fact conversion of a BP muzzleloader. Even the ones that were made from scratch as trapdoors are nowhere near as strong as a Marlin 1895, much less a Ruger #1. Full power loads are intended for guns like them, not a trapdoor.

Ignore those who think that a load is "safe" as long as the gun doesn't blow up on the first shot. Shoot a trapdoor with SAAMI level loads. They provide useful ballistics as long as the range isn't too long. If you need more, get a gun designed for it. Live is too short to make it shorter through stupidity.
 
I remember the first year they changed the law. I had a heck of a time getting a 35Whelen barrel for my Thompson Center Encore. They had such a back order on both 35Whelen and 45.70 barrels. Every dealer said they could not get them shipped up to Alaska because all of the states that had the new law was selling them so fast.
 
the thompson center contender fits all of those critia. my brother-in-law has one in 45/70 and it's a beast I tell you what.that thing jumped out of my hands every time I fired that thing. I dont know if the ruger no one has an exposed hammer but it fits the rest of your critia
 
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