45 ACP, 45 Cowboy Special and 45 Schofield in 45 Colt Redhawk

[zanders]

So, for slower burning powders the 45 colt case works great. What I'm curious about is what the best option is for some fast burning target loads. The options that come to mind are:

1. 45 Colt cases with tons of room inside.
2. 45 ACP in moonclips
3. 45 Schofield (might still be a bit roomy)
4. 45 Cowboy Special

I've read a lot of arguments for and against bullet jump. There seems to be pretty universal agreement on the fact that a 45 colt case with a small amount of fast burning powder is somewhere in the range of unreliable to dangerous.

I'd like to hear opinions on the subject and if anyone has done any testing along the lines I'd love to see the data.

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I've read a lot of arguments for and against bullet jump. There seems to be pretty universal agreement on the fact that a 45 colt case with a small amount of fast burning powder is somewhere in the range of unreliable to dangerous.

I don't understand the bullet jump part of your question.
Would you explain that further.
Back in the 1980s I heard and read a lot about the unexplainable explosions of Colt 45 loaded with small amounts of Bullseye or other fast burning powders, that were shape charging upwards instead of firing rearward to forward like they are suppose to, but I haven't seen anything for quite a while about it. I read articles on it but nothing I ever saw was proven.

I stayed away from that practice because they couldn't disprove it either.

 

[zanders]

Okay so the argument for bullet jump goes:

The difference in length between the cartridge the gun is chambered for and the shorter round, 45 colt and 45 acp in this case, causes a loss of accuracy from the bullet traveling through the throats for that additional length.

The argument against contends that:

The length difference is inconsequential because the bullet will still be stabilized by the rifling either way.

None of these arguments that I recall ever brought in data from controlled testing so I can see how both sides might have a point.

 

[mcb]

You rarely hear anything about bullet jump when shooting 38 Special in 357 Magnum but with 45 Colt it seems to always crop up. I personally shoot a lot of 38 Short Colt in my 357 Magnum (Also done 40 S&W in 10mm revolver and 45 GAP in a 45 ACP revolver) and I can keep them in the A-zone of a USPSA target at 30 yards. I suspect my accuracy is more effected by the round nose bullets I am using than the jump down the longer chamber.

If it was me I would be doing 45 ACP on moonclips in your Red Hawk but I have a moonclip obsession/addiction so take that will a large grain of salt. 45 ACP brass is relatively cheap and easy to get. The moonclips leave your brass in little piles of 6. Moonclips are the fastest reload method for a revolver.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Okay so the argument for bullet jump goes:

The difference in length between the cartridge the gun is chambered for and the shorter round, 45 colt and 45 acp in this case, causes a loss of accuracy from the bullet traveling through the throats for that additional length.

The argument against contends that:

The length difference is inconsequential because the bullet will still be stabilized by the rifling either way.

Ok, I understand now, I can't comment to that because I always shoot the longer case with a safe load. The only thing I can add at this point is a bullet that hits the rifling crooked goes down the barrel crooked. This would affect a rifle cartridge with it's longer range much more than a pistol cartridge at a short range they are used at for most shooters.
For competitors and bullseye shooters, they will have to speak to that. I like to keep all my bullets as close to the chamber throats as I can get.
I need all the help I can get.

 

[Toprudder]

There are a few powders that are not case position sensitive. Titegroup and BE86 come to mind. Maybe Clays also. Personally I would stick with 45 Colt cases, and use TrailBoss. It is a fast burning but very low density powder that will fill the case.

 

[Walkalong]

Titegroup and BE86 come to mind. Maybe Clays also.

Clays is better than Titegroup, which was average in the applications I tried it in, and BE-86 is better than average as well. Either would work well for the OP, assuming he is careful working up the load. Clays won't be forgiving if he gets carried away with it and works up in greater than .1 increments.

I have a Clays load in .38 Spl with 125 Gr bullets and it is accurate, doesn't lose a tom of velocity powder forward, and cases are squeaky clean. Pressure is up there despite the low charge weight and velocity.

 

[the Black Spot]

Deep seated wadcutters in your colt cases with fast powder. Use the swc's in the acp cases

 

[MEHavey]

I wouldn't get too wrapped around case choice to any expensive degree until you see how the specific gun reacts.

Case in point: (no pun intended)
- My Uberti S&W #3 in 45 Colt loves the shorter 45 Schofield
Here's what you want/functions perfectly in the #3 Uberti:


(Actual Velocity = 713fps/Oehler)
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6632935&postcount=15

BUT . . . .
- My Ruger New Vaquero* absolutely hates it.




* even with the cylinder throats reamed to .452
1st thing I did w/ that (and all my other)Ruger(s) was ream the throat with Brownell's Reamer to 0.4525"
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...olver-cylinder-throating-reamer-prod7700.aspx

The Vaquero is superbly accurate with cast...

...just doesn't like the Schofield load

 

[zanders]

A lot of good points so far. I like the look of the clays on paper in the load books I have access to.

Deep seated wadcutters in your colt cases with fast powder. Use the swc's in the acp cases

I like this idea, however I don't think I've seen 45 colt wadcutters anywhere and I just checked my 3 load books and none of them have any data. Would you happen to have any advice on where to get the data & bullets to pull this off?

 

[CrankyCraig]

There are a few powders that are not case position sensitive. Titegroup and BE86 come to mind. Maybe Clays also. Personally I would stick with 45 Colt cases, and use TrailBoss. It is a fast burning but very low density powder that will fill the case.

Love trail boss in 45 colt good case fill with those little Donuts. Use it under OTBC 200 & 250 grain RNFP smells funny but shoots soft and plenty accurate for cowboy action plinking etc.

 

[the Black Spot]

Zanders, here is one place:
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_82&products_id=271
Just drop 10% from regular load data for a given bullet weight.
I have no problems is my charter 45 colt bulldog using 7.5 gr unique with a 240 gr WC

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I used to load W231 or Red Dot in the 45 Colt until I tried HS-6, I now use nothing else. I'm using Win LPP and a 250/255gr cast bullet, the ammo is extremely accurate.

Red Dot is a fast powder and I never had a problem with it. I never heard fast powders in the 45 Colt are dangerous.

 

[Toprudder]

Red Dot is a fast powder and I never had a problem with it. I never heard fast powders in the 45 Colt are dangerous.

I don’t think it is “fast powders” so much as it is powders with poor case fill. Some powders are very position sensitive. Fast powders generally use less volume.

 

[Walkalong]

I never heard fast powders in the 45 Colt are dangerous.

Me either, only carelessness with fast powders.

 

[zanders]

Zanders, here is one place:
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_82&products_id=271
Just drop 10% from regular load data for a given bullet weight.
I have no problems is my charter 45 colt bulldog using 7.5 gr unique with a 240 gr WC

Thanks for the link and the info.

I don’t think it is “fast powders” so much as it is powders with poor case fill. Some powders are very position sensitive. Fast powders generally use less volume.

This. My impression is that one of two things happen:

1. The powder fails to ignite well and you wind up with a squib which you don't notice and shoot again.
2. The powder is spread out enough that the ignition of all of it is simultaneous (think grain silo).

The result in either case is a blown up gun. Maybe it's just an urban legend of the shooting community, I honestly don't know.

Me either, only carelessness with fast powders.

It could also be this. Somebody double charges a case and can't accept that they could have been at fault and then seeks to rationalize it.

 

[Walkalong]

1. The powder fails to ignite well and you wind up with a squib which you don't notice and shoot again.
2. The powder is spread out enough that the ignition of all of it is simultaneous (think grain silo).

1. The charge weight is too low with a powder that is a poor performer away from the primer in that application and the shooter brings the gun up from pointing down and fires it. Fast powders in these applications don't fail to ignite and burn.
2.Powder spread out level in cases where there is a lot of empty space often times gives better numbers than powder back or powder forward. The powder does not "ignite all at once" and blow up or we would be blowing up guns left and right. Double charges blow up guns, full power loads fired behind a squib the shooter doesn't notice blows up guns.

 

[Walkalong]

It could also be this. Somebody double charges a case and can't accept that they could have been at fault and then seeks to rationalize it.

Yep.