45 ACP: Effects of Powder on Accuracy

[777funk]

Curious how powder effects accuracy in 45 ACP. I've been using Titewad (no not group) for a while with cast lead. I have a pretty light load developed since there's no actual 45 data for this fast powder. I've probably shot 1k worth so far and no complaints. Seems to do well and with light recoil.

But I'm curious, I've read numerous places that 231 (or aka HP38) is one of the best powders. I've talked to a caster (Jimmy Mitchell - bulletworks in texas) who finds TiteGroup to be his go to.

Is there a big difference in accuracy with various powders? It seems like at 20 yards it'd be hard to see a difference in much besides shooter accuracy. But I'm curious. There are times I see my sites right where I want them when the trigger is pulled and the bullet hits about 4" from that point.

 

[Claude Clay]

4" in which direction?
4" scattered or in a group?

 

[777funk]

Majority hit at POA but with a few fliers here and there. Also I notice recoil can vary occasionally.

 

[Claude Clay]

recoil varies...do you have consistent powder measures and crimp?
are you casting , sizing and lubing your own bullets?
all rounds assembled from the same batch of primers?

for the recoil to vary i'm looking for anything that may be different.
if the recoil is different enough to feel, its likely different enough to affect shot placement.

 

[777funk]

Yes, I use the Lee Auto Disk and I use very little crimp with Bear Creek (Moly Coated Cast) and Bulletworks Lubed Lead. I've checked dimensions and weights and they're very consistent within less than a grain or two (which is within a percent when we're talking 200gr and 230gr. Powder seems to be charging consistently as well. It's not often but once in a while I feel a little more recoil.

It very well could be me but I do get a flier every few shots and if I were to call the shot, my sights are on target.

 

[KansasSasquatch]

I have only been reloading a short time compared to many people here but in my time I've come to the conclusion that using different powders in a given cartridge definitely makes a difference. In .45acp alone I've used IMR 800X, Red Dot, Unique, Bullseye, W231, True Blue, and Longshot. I've been able to find good loads with all of them except Longshot. To be fair I've only tried Longshot with my home cast boolits but I've used several of the other powders with similar commercial cast boolits with much success. Either Longshot is too slow burning to work with lead in .45acp or my cast boolits aren't up to par. I'll have to do more testing with Longshot and other boolits, as well as other powders with my boolits to figure out the problem. But I've also noticed my W231 and Unique loads have the best accuracy and smoothest felt recoil (which definitely help accuracy in rapid fire). I started reloading as a means to save money (while shooting more) but it has quickly become a hobby of its own, finding a new combination that works well for you is always fun and exciting, to me anyways.

 

[edfardos]

I too use bear creek bullets, with w231 and I find it surprisingly accurate. Just as good as my revolver and better than my 40s&w. Might all be coincidence, but I won't be changing my recipe any time soon.

Edfardos

 

[BYJO4]

I've had very good results with Bullseye and Unique.

 

[Upstater]

I use 231 with 200 gr. lswc with excellent results, I do still have to try the 230 gr. Missouri bullets, but I think they will be fine as well.

 

[ljnowell]

So, let me get the facts straight:

1. You are new to reloading
2. You are using a powder that has no load data for the cartidge you are loading
3. You are guessing at load data
4. Your loads are varying so much that you can feel a difference in recoil from shot to shot
5. You dont have a full grasp of ballistics(asking if powder makes a difference)

With all of the above true I think you need to step back, take a few deep breaths, and start over. You are an accident waiting to happen.

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, and I am not trying to insult you. This is the truth, painful as it may be.

 

[Walkalong]

There can definitely be a substantial difference in accuracy between some powders in some applications. New reloaders have so many choices there is no good reason to use a powder one has no data for.

W231, WST, Bullseye, AA #2, 700X, N310, N320, Solo 1000, etc. Just so many good choices with lots of data to go with them.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

When there is little to no load data for a powder/cartridge combination there is usually a VERY good reason.

Hodgdon does not recommend using Titewad in anything other than light 12ga shotshells. I don't think Hodgdon supplies data for Titewad and handgun cartridges at all.

 

[Sauer Grapes]

Alot of people like titegroup in 45acp due to not being sensitive to position in the case. Some powders that don't fill the case react differently.

You say there's no data. I suggest you go here and follow the data to the letter. Guessing is not a wise option.
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Double Post

 

[ArchAngelCD]

When there is little to no load data for a powder/cartridge combination there is usually a VERY good reason.

Hodgdon does not recommend using Titewad in anything other than light 12ga shotshells. I don't think Hodgdon supplies data for Titewad and handgun cartridges at all.

Alot of people like titegroup in 45acp due to not being sensitive to position in the case. Some powders that don't fill the case react differently.

You say there's no data. I suggest you go here and follow the data to the letter. Guessing is not a wise option.
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Were you talking to me? If so I was talking about Titewad and you are talking about Titegroup.

 

[mtrmn]

Not only changing the powder can make a big difference, but just changing the charge amount will shrink/expand groups immensely.
I had best luck with Unique, Bullseye, and Winchester 540--which is no longer available but I hear there's a Hodgdon powder that is identical---I just can't recall the designation and don't have access to my notes at the moment.

 

[Sauer Grapes]

Were you talking to me? If so I was talking about Titewad and you are talking about Titegroup.

Absolutely not.
The OP said there was no data. There is data for titewad.
Obviously the OP didn't bother looking on the manufacturer's website before plunging into loading.
He mention titegroup being some ''casters'' go to powder.

 

[777funk]

No I looked at the Hodgdon data on the web (and called) and found no data (12GA only). I had read a few posts of other guys having good results with 45 ACP and they gave charge amounts so when 231 wasn't available, I tried it. I also have an old container of Red Dot and a few other shotgun powders that DO have data for 45. I'll have to see what the results are from those.

45ACP is pretty low pressure cart and with a fast burning powder and low charge I don't feel worried. As far as low charge, I realize this can also be a problem... but slow burning powders are the ones that usually KaBoom when not fully filling the case and this is far from slow burning. I've loaded the same cases up to 20 times with no bulges, primers popping loose, flattening, or any other signs of high pressures. The load cycles reliably and the recoil is much less than a factory WWB, I'm honestly not worried about it. But that's just me, I'm not saying anyone else has to or should do it.

Reloading's always a risk. I've reloaded for shotgun for almost 20 years. I understand the risks. Not that I don't appreciate a warning.

 

[ljnowell]

45ACP is pretty low pressure cart and with a fast burning powder and low charge I don't feel worried. As far as low charge, I realize this can also be a problem... but slow burning powders are the ones that usually KaBoom when not fully filling the case and this is far from slow burning. I've loaded the same cases up to 20 times with no bulges, primers popping loose, flattening, or any other signs of high pressures. The load cycles reliably and the recoil is much less than a factory WWB, I'm honestly not worried about it. But that's just me, I'm not saying anyone else has to or should do it.

There is so much wrong here that its really not even worth it to point it out, as I dont think you would pay any attention to it anyway. You are an accident waiting to happen.

 

[mtrmn]

Just a few 10ths of a grain too much of a fast powder like Bullseye will bulge cases and cause possible kabooms....bulged a few cases myself.

 

[Walkalong]

45ACP is pretty low pressure cart and with a fast burning powder and low charge I don't feel worried. As far as low charge, I realize this can also be a problem... but slow burning powders are the ones that usually KaBoom when not fully filling the case and this is far from slow burning. I've loaded the same cases up to 20 times with no bulges, primers popping loose, flattening, or any other signs of high pressures. The load cycles reliably and the recoil is much less than a factory WWB, I'm honestly not worried about it. But that's just me, I'm not saying anyone else has to or should do it.

You can go over pressure with fast powders in .45 ACP very quickly, you are simply wrong about slow burning powders not filling the case in .45 ACP causing kabooms, and if you see popped primers or any "sign of high pressure" whatsoever in .45 ACP you are severely over pressure. You can be over pressure in .45 ACP with absolutely no "signs of over pressure".

Reloading doesn't always have to be a risk.

 

[Kosh75287]

Musical Powders

Along these lines, but in a different application, I asked Alliant if it might be possible to use their ".410" powder for magnum handgun loads, since Winchester's 296 powder is widely used in .410 shot shells. They replied that the similarity was present in .410 shotshells but that's where the similarity ends. It has different burn characteristics, when used in cartridges for which it wasn't intended. Sounded like a good idea, but coulda easily been a temptation to fate.

I, too, was disappointed that Tite-Group data wasn't published for pistol applications. They had the name right, anyway. BUT, a pound of pistol powder is still cheaper (when we can find it on the shelf) than a new pistol, so my sense of utilitarianism sorta goes away when the prospect of replacing ordnance or body parts arises.

 

[777funk]

ljnowell: I'm not saying a fast powder isn't one to KB. What I AM saying and my point above is that a low charge KB is usually when an ultra low charge is dropped in a rifle cartridge and doesn't fully fill the case and no filler is added to take up the space. There's a name for it but basically the primer ignites all of the little that's in there at once and creates a huge pressure spike with the low charge weight. In the case of using a low charge weight while not filling the case (i.e. reloading lead in 30/30) a fast burning powder IS what's wanted to keep the mentioned situation from happening and to keep the pressure down.

Since, I'm using a low charge faster is what I'm after and I'm much less afraid of the issue above as if I were using a slower powder. That's all I was saying there.

I've looked at the pressure curves vs charge weight for this powder and compared it to the powder above and below it on the burn rate chart and on a chart that gave pressures to a set velocity early on. Based on that I feel I have a safe charge for what I'm doing. And NO, I'm not making (or planning to make) +P or even standard 45 ACP level loads using TiteWad. But for the ultra light charges I'm dropping, I don't see (or feel) any indication of pressure spikes. A double charge could (I'd be surprised if could was not read 'would') create an issue I'm sure, but I visually inspect every single case fill.

And what I was saying about 45 ACP being a low pressure cartridge, I stand behind that. I don't think anyone can argue there's more room for error (again I feel I'm in a safe range with the above load) with 45 than say 40S&W. I've read reports of higher than recommended charges being used by accident in .45 and barrels surviving it. I'm not planning that obviously.

But back to what I said above, TiteWad in comparison to other powders that ARE used on the burn rate chart...

Here is the burn rate chart I mentioned earlier:
http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

TiteWad is #6 in speed and in between powders that DO have load data for .45 ACP. Loading conservatively (Low) using data from the ones above and below it I feel fairly safe. Here's another thread about using a Shotgun powder for pistol (no pistol data).

This one (Vihtavuori 310) is faster than TiteWad (two or three powders above TightWad in burn rate).

What makes a powder optimum for a load is the lowest pressure at the highest consistent velocity. TiteWad is NOT an optimum powder. At safe pressure ranges, you have low velocity.

EDIT: for data on powders that don't give a data sheet for a set cartridge (TiteWad for instance):
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

And it does give charges for TiteWad with several different projectiles (including cast). And .45ACP is the only popular pistol cartridge I could find load data on with the above tool that I linked to. But it is there and that's coming from Hodgdon's (the manufacturer's) own mouth so to speak.

 

[777funk]

And to all who've warned in a non-condescending way, thank you and I appreciate the fair warning.

I value my hands enough to be careful; to read the charge data, and be as scientific as I can. There wasn't data on TiteWad when I started but I'd read others used it, looked at similar burn rate (faster and slower) powders and started low (stayed low). Now I have found actual factory published load data as posted in my previous post.

I'm not the first to use a shotgun powder with no actual data for .45 ACP. I did some homework on the powder early on, started low, and paid careful attention to my brass. I've probably run 1000 of the load I use without any issues or bulged/split cases. Some have been loaded up to 20 times and are still not showing any issues with the case.

That said, we've gotten into a different subject than the title of the thread and once again thank you for the warning. I'd much rather be safe than accurate. But with that said, I'd like to get back on track with the original train of thought of the thread at this point.

 

[Master Blaster]

Bullseye pistol competitors have been using Alliant Bullseye for many years because it gives them the best accuracy out of thier custom .45 acp bullseye guns. The classic load is 4.0 grains of Bullseye under a 200LSWC. Some varry it between 3.8 and 4.2 at my club to get better accurcay from their guns. Also some bullseye competitors use a 155 LSWC with an even lighter charge of Bullseye. 750 fps seems to be the sweet spot for match 45acp ammo.

Another powder that is used and delivers great accuracy is Solo 1000.
Trailboss also works great.

Titegroup, W231, and Unique (slowest powder for .45ACP target shooting, used with jacketed 200 SWC for 50 yards), are also used.

Please be smart and stick to published data it is availible free on line, I would also recommend a copy of Lyman's latest manual, much cheaper than a visit to the emergency room.

As far as the Kaboom effect for under loaded rifle with slow buring powder goes, detonation has not been reproduced in the lab by the powder companies. What is most likely happening is a stuck bullet in the barrel, and then the next round being fired with catastrophic results.