45 ACP Reload Sanity Check

[soapee01]

This is my first time reloading. Nothing is lining up perfectly with my manuals, so I'd appreciate some feedback before I destroy my guns or myself

Equipment: Hornady L&L AP Progressive, New dimension dies.

Pistols: S&W M&P Shield 2.0 45, Glock 30, Colt 1917

Bullets (purchased 11 years ago at a gun show):
Label: Frontier CMJ 45ACP 230gr RN (0.451)
Website (today):
https://frontierbullets.co.za/?product=cmj-45-cal-230gr-round-nose
Diameter: 0.451
Sectional Density: 0.162
Finish: Copper Plated, Restrike
Plating Thickness: 125 microns
OAL: 16.3mm

Powder: Hodgdon Universal (it's what I could find)
Primer: CCI 300 Large Pistol
Brass: Varies

Per Hodgdon: https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/re...a-do-i-use-when-my-specific-bullet-not-listed
Lead bullets and copper plated lead bullets yield very similar pressure and velocity results, so when the weights are the same, the same data may be used for each.

Now the fun part. I have lots of manuals, but few with Hodgdon Universal Powder. Hornady 7th edition also lists a load for "Clays Univ" which based on reading and some comparative data seems to be the old name for "Hodgdon Universal".

I wish this BB did tables so this could be easier... if it does, please let me know and I'll edit this. The BB-codes, and html codes for tables didn't seem to work.

            700fps  750fps  800fps  850fps     900fps      Bullet      SD     Diameter  Source
Clays Univ  x       5.2     5.6     5.9        6.2(max)    12308 LRN   0.162  0.452     Hornady 7th edition
Universal   x       5.2     5.4     5.7(max)               12308 LRN   0.162  0.452     Hornady 10th edition
            703fps                  857fps
Universal   4.5     x       x       5.4 (max)              12308 LRN   0.162  0.452     Hodgdonreloading.com

I do not have a chronograph, so I'll be looking for pressure signs, but I absolutely don't want to break a gun or myself.

The goals: Plinking round similar in velocity to the Sig Sauer 230gr V-Crown JPB (830ft/sec). I might also carry these while hunting as backup against hogs since good ammo is hard to find.

So the data on max pressure vs velocity seems to vary a bit. I'm thinking about doing some loads at 5.0gr, 5.2gr, 5.4gr, 5.6gr. I'm worried about the max load difference between Hodgdonreloading.com and Hornady X, especially with these CMJ bullets. Should I max at 5.4, or is going up to 5.6 ok?

 

[mdi]

Sounds a bit like "New Reloader Overthinking" syndrome, Not entirely a bad thing, but it can get in the way at times. From the on line Hodgdon reloading data, go to the 45 ACP section, check 230m gr., Hodgdon, and Universal. Click "Get Data" and use the starting load for the 230 gr. LRN, and KISS. Yes I know your bullet is plated, but use lead data and you will be good. Start with the beginning load and reload a few to test feeding, function and accuracy. Get used to reloading consistent, well functioning before you start "chasing Max.". If all is well then do a work-up if necessary (the data in the "chart" above seems a bit high). Next step, go .5 gr heavier with Universal (I use Universal a lot in my 3, 45 ACP guns). IF you feel it necessary you can go up to about 850 fps with that bullet, but most of my loads don't...

Go slow. Double check everything. KISS. And most important, have fun...

 

[Charlie98]

Should I max at 5.4, or is going up to 5.6 ok?

Your pistol will tell you what the max is. Generically speaking, always start with the newest load data available, although I normally cross-reference with other and/or older data, too, like you have done... but the newest data takes precedence.

Edit: I should probably explain that first comment better... as mdi suggests, your pistol's accuracy will tell you what a good load is, very often before you hit max load. As far as the actual charge... I wouldn't exceed max published data, particularly as a new reloader, all the while keeping tabs on things like primer condition, case soot, odd recoil and report... watching for signs of high pressure.

I'm not familiar with Universal, however, so I don't know how forgiving it is.

 

[Dudedog]

Hodgdons data

230 GR. LRN Hodgdon Universal .452" 1.200" 4.5 703 11,400 CUP 5.4 857 16,800 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ Hodgdon Universal .451" 1.200" 5.1 716 11,800 CUP 5.6 844 16,800 CUP

Frontiers are plated, I have found plated bullets tend to fall between lead and jacketed generally.
I have used Universal but never pushed it. I have heard it can be spikey on top.
I would call 5.4 the MAX and if I wanted more vel than that I would go to another powder.
Would 5.6 be a kaboom, not likely as .45 pressures are lower to begin with, but I'm chicken and like my fingers so I like to err on the side of caution.

Any bullet setback could raise pressures as well.

Western lists ..45 Auto +P data so if I wanted to push I might be looking for a powder there.
Maybe Silhouette.



This would be an example of your pistol telling you the load was to hot....

 

[soapee01]

Thank you all for the replies.

DudeDog: I definetly do not want an exploded gun like that cz you posted. It's why I've asked. My expectation was the Hornady max would match the Hodgdon's, but that 0.2 grain difference had me worried.

I think I'll start with 20 rounds each at 4.9, 5.0, 5.1, 5.2, 5.3, and see what's most accurate across the guns I have. Then I may work up minor grain (0.5) differences. I will be weighing each powder charge on a scale. This press has been new in box in my garage for 11 years, so I'm not ready to blindly trust the powder measure (and my powder cop die is still on order).

If anyone thinks this is really dumb, please say so!

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Thank you all for the replies.

DudeDog: I definetly do not want an exploded gun like that cz you posted. It's why I've asked. My expectation was the Hornady max would match the Hodgdon's, but that 0.2 grain difference had me worried.

I think I'll start with 20 rounds each at 4.9, 5.0, 5.1, 5.2, 5.3, and see what's most accurate across the guns I have. Then I may work up minor grain (0.5) differences. I will be weighing each powder charge on a scale. This press has been new in box in my garage for 11 years, so I'm not ready to blindly trust the powder measure (and my powder cop die is still on order).

If anyone thinks this is really dumb, please say so!

Why are you wanting to get up near max load?

You said it was for “plinking”. So is there a reason you need/want max load?

Personally, I’d suggest staying in the middle of the load range until you get more experience. As others said, get in good habits, learn how your loads work in your guns and enjoy yourself. After that you can mess with other things but I think being safe is what’s important.

 

[LiveLife]

S&W M&P Shield 2.0 45, Glock 30, Colt 1917 ... Frontier CMJ 45ACP 230gr RN ... Hodgdon Universal

The goals: Plinking round similar in velocity to the Sig Sauer 230gr V-Crown JPB (830ft/sec). I might also carry these while hunting as backup against hogs since good ammo is hard to find.

Since you are loading for multiple pistols, you would need to determine the working OAL that will reliably feed/chamber in all the pistols first before conducting powder work up.

As to using the rounds for hogs, most plated bullets have soft lead core and talk to hunters and likely they would suggest using hard cast lead bullets against animal targets.

As to load data, I have used plated bullets with lead load data with good results
- https://reloading-data.speer-ammo.c...un/45_caliber_451-454_dia/45_Auto_230_LRN.pdf

• 45ACP 230 gr Lead RN Universal OAL 1.240" Start 5.2 gr (818 fps) - Max 5.5 gr (867 fps)

 

[soapee01]

Forgive the ignorance, I thought 5.3 was backed off enough!

What max then would you recommend I stop at?

 

[vaalpens]

These 230gr RN bullets normally have different nose profiles, so you need to first decide on a COL you want to load. Load a few dummy rounds and make sure they pass the plunk test. Make sure the ogive is not inside the case and the dummy rounds cycles through your gun. I currently load some 230gr FMJRN bullets with a COL of 1.250".

It seems your bullet is about .64" long, and the bullet I use about .66". So I think you should be safe to just start at the Hodgdon load data starting load for the 230 GR. HDY FMJ FP with your COL for the RN bullet, and work my way up from there.

Be safe.

 

[LiveLife]

Forgive the ignorance, I thought 5.3 was backed off enough!

What max then would you recommend I stop at?

You are putting the cart before the horse.

You need to first determine the max OAL using the barrels then function test dummy rounds (No powder, No primer) by feeding from magazines to determine the working OAL (While max OAL could reliably feed from magazines, sometimes shorter OAL is required).

And then reference load data.

So if your working OAL is at or longer than published load data, you could use the listed start/max charges. And if your working OAL is shorter than published, you may need to reduce your start/max charges.

Here's another load data to consider (Note longer 1.260" OAL). Speer TMJ is a thick plated RN that can be driven to jacketed load data. Frontier is plated bullet made in South Africa and we do not have plating thickness information (See bottom of linked post) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ng-at-25-50-yards.808446/page-3#post-10470195

• 45ACP 230 gr TMJ RN Universal OAL 1.260" Start 5.5 gr (806 fps) - Max 6.3 gr (910 fps) - https://reloading-data.speer-ammo.c...liber_451-454_dia/45_Automatic_230_TMJ_RN.pdf

Keep in mind that Universal achieve more efficient powder burn at mid-to-high range load data and depending on your barrels' groove-to-groove diamters, .451" sized plated bullets will leak more gas than .452" sized lead bullets and may require higher powder charges.

So determine the working OAL first and if it is around 1.240"-1.250", I would reference lead load data and work up to 5.4 gr and 5.5 gr.

And if working OAL is more around 1.260", I would reference Speer plated load data and test 5.5 gr and 5.6 gr initially as you can always go higher.

And you are working with different barrel length pistols. With working OAL of 1.260", to achieve 830 fps out of all of them (which is not plinking round, more like Major Power Factor round), you will need way more than 5.5 gr of Universal as you may not get 800 fps with 5.5 gr.

 

[soapee01]

Since you are loading for multiple pistols, you would need to determine the working OAL that will reliably feed/chamber in all the pistols first before conducting powder work up.

As to using the rounds for hogs, most plated bullets have soft lead core and talk to hunters and likely they would suggest using hard cast lead bullets against animal targets.

As to load data, I have used plated bullets with lead load data with good results
- https://reloading-data.speer-ammo.c...un/45_caliber_451-454_dia/45_Auto_230_LRN.pdf

• 45ACP 230 gr Lead RN Universal OAL 1.240" Start 5.2 gr (818 fps) - Max 5.5 gr (867 fps)

Thanks for that. I was setting my bullet seating die at 1.275. I was also ignoring the COL data in the manuals. Not smart.

Hodgden uses a COL of 1.20", Hornady X at 1.210" and Speer at 1.240". The seating depth (from what I've read) will explain the differences in powder recommendations.

I'll work up some test loads as suggested with different COL's and chamber them in both pistols and see how it feeds, then go with that data.

Thank you for the help!

 

[9mmepiphany]

different COL's and chamber them in both pistols and see how it feeds

Before you determine how an OAL will feed, it is important to Plunk Test to see which OAL will chamber...feeding and chambering are often used interchangeably, but they aren't

 

[Dudedog]

(and my powder cop die is still on order).

You already ordered but I really prefer the RCBS lockout die to a powder cop that you have to watch.

https://ultimatereloader.com/2010/09/19/rcbs-lock-out-die-part-i-theory-of-operation/
https://ultimatereloader.com/2010/09/21/rcbs-lock-out-die-part-ii-setup-and-maintenance/

Other powder check die info here as well.

 

[mdi]

Why are you wanting to get up near max load?

You said it was for “plinking”. So is there a reason you need/want max load?

Personally, I’d suggest staying in the middle of the load range until you get more experience. As others said, get in good habits, learn how your loads work in your guns and enjoy yourself. After that you can mess with other things but I think being safe is what’s important.

Agree. My "hottest' load is the classic Bullseye load under a 230 FMJ for my Just in Case ammo. I worked this load up in my 3. 45 auto guns, starting with my first 45 ACP in '91 and it shows no overpressure, is not unpleasant to shoot and gives me about 825 fps from my handguns and closer to 875-880 fps in my carbine. This is my "emergency" ammo and will work for all my needs; SD/HD, if I have evacuated, or during "civil unrest".

 

[AJC1]

I'm just going to put it out there... I think it's very well known that pressure signs in 45acp are worthless. By the time you see any of the classic signs your waaaaay over. Dont believe me please do the research.