splattergun
Member
I can't argue that.Lee dies are great, but their instructions are crap. IMHO of course.
never the less, the biggest problem with Lee equipment is failure to follow (poorly written) directions.
45 ACP Reloading Issues
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never the less, the biggest problem with Lee equipment is failure to follow (poorly written) directions.
HOWARD J
Member
Years ago I started with all Lee dies for 45 ACP I had problems so I switched to Lee resizing die, lee expanding die, RCBS seating die ( used for seating only) RCBS taper crimp die.
I load mostly berry 200gn. SWC & 235 gn. round nose & some HAPS.
One of my grandkids thinks I should be supplying his department all their practice rds. So I load a lot of them. I saw my original Lee seating die tonight-- the seater stem inside the die was frozen in place ( been a long time since I used it)
Hope you get it all working
HJ
I load mostly berry 200gn. SWC & 235 gn. round nose & some HAPS.
One of my grandkids thinks I should be supplying his department all their practice rds. So I load a lot of them. I saw my original Lee seating die tonight-- the seater stem inside the die was frozen in place ( been a long time since I used it)
Hope you get it all working
HJ
docv
Member
These days I load on a progressive but I had moved away from the Lee expander die to a Lyman M die on my single stage. The Lyman M die solved a lot of problems for me as it made it possible for me to set the bullet straighter.
I pulled my RockChucker out storage today to do some case trimming. Picked out my Lee 45 ACP dies too to run through what I remembered of when I used those dies. For lead and plated , I set my Lee expander to give me about .01 to .015 flare so that the base of my projectile will sit about 1/16 of an inch into the case and the projectile sits as straight as possible. I also size and crimp in separate steps.
I do not follow the Lee FCD instructions. Instead, I set the base of the die to touch the shell case and back it out about 1/8 of a turn. The carbide sizing ring on my Lee FCD alone is generally good enough to take a light flare off the case so if the rounds plunk without tightening the crimping stem you are good to go. Sometimes I need to add more crimp. Then I will unscrew the crimping stem so that it can not touch a round. I take a factory round, or, in my case, a previously built dummy template round, with a crimp of about .4725 ish to 4.73, set the round into the shell holder and raise the ram. Once the ram has lifted the round into the FCD I turn down the crimping stem until it kisses the case and then lower the ram and tweak the stem slightly tighter. I then use a new dummy round to test my crimp setting. If the resulting crimp on loaded rounds is about .472 and the new dummy plunks okay I call it good.
As to COL for a new-to-me bullet without published data, I go as long as possible. I estimate my COL by using my barrel. I hold the barrel vertically, drop in an unloaded projectile then insert a case so that it rests on the bullet's base. I then mark the case where it meets the end of the hood (1911 barrel). Remove the case and bullet. Measure the length of the bullet. Measure the case to the mark and add those measurements, I back that measurement off a bit and make trial dummy rounds and see if I can tell which ones seem the best by taking the COL of the first dummy that plunks okay. I can usually figure out a starting COL with fewer than 5 dummies. If I haven't overcrimped the dummies, I will pull them and load them.
All that said, I have better accuracy with lead, coated, or jacketed than I do with plated but I went through a thousand or so rounds of plated to figure that out.
Thank you guys for all for the helpful advice. Especially about the flaring and the crimp.
To answer the question about brass and cleaning, I'm using range pickup brass (mixture of headstamps) and I'm wet tumbling it.
I really think we're onto something with the alignment. How are you shimming the dies to true it up with the shell holder? You can also see the bulge in the case from the bullet on these. What I find odd is looking at several of them, you can see the bulge on one side of the case, but if you spin it around it's not really there. Almost like the bullet is seated more to one side than the other. Do you all think a Lyman M die is the solution to my problems? Or is the die out of alignment?
I've taken a few pictures:
The case measures .467 below the bullet.
It measures .4705 if you measure the case around the bullet.
Any additional suggestions would be appreciated.
To answer the question about brass and cleaning, I'm using range pickup brass (mixture of headstamps) and I'm wet tumbling it.
I really think we're onto something with the alignment. How are you shimming the dies to true it up with the shell holder? You can also see the bulge in the case from the bullet on these. What I find odd is looking at several of them, you can see the bulge on one side of the case, but if you spin it around it's not really there. Almost like the bullet is seated more to one side than the other. Do you all think a Lyman M die is the solution to my problems? Or is the die out of alignment?
I've taken a few pictures:
The case measures .467 below the bullet.
It measures .4705 if you measure the case around the bullet.
Any additional suggestions would be appreciated.
Long time ago read about squaring dies to shell holder by using a flat washer on empty shell holder to put upward pressure on die while tightening lock ring. Have taken to just using fired case, and tightening lock ring on top of ram travel. Am still using a flat washer to square up the seating die.
A lyman m die may help, especially in seating the bullet straight. So long as you can maintain a good interference fit. A Lee factory crimp may also help.
In all honesty, those rounds do not look too bad at all although the bulge is slightly more noticeable on one side.
Every single pistol round i load you can see the where the base of the bullet is.
Another consideration is the dia of Berry's bullets. If slightly larger in dia, it may be tougher to seat them in an immaculately cleaned brass case. If that is the case, the lyman expander is made for cast bullet diameters, and may be good to try.
A lyman m die may help, especially in seating the bullet straight. So long as you can maintain a good interference fit. A Lee factory crimp may also help.
In all honesty, those rounds do not look too bad at all although the bulge is slightly more noticeable on one side.
Every single pistol round i load you can see the where the base of the bullet is.
Another consideration is the dia of Berry's bullets. If slightly larger in dia, it may be tougher to seat them in an immaculately cleaned brass case. If that is the case, the lyman expander is made for cast bullet diameters, and may be good to try.
vaalpens
Member
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Based on your measurements, I don't think you have an issue. I just measure a 230gr FMJ bullet and 200gr plated bullet.
Below the bullet I get .4680" and around the bullet I get .4720". Both cases are Federal. A case wall thickness is about .0115" times 2 = .0230" + bullet diameter of .452" = .475".
Below the bullet I get .4680" and around the bullet I get .4720". Both cases are Federal. A case wall thickness is about .0115" times 2 = .0230" + bullet diameter of .452" = .475".
docv
Member
Do those rounds plunk okay? If so, that might be good enough. Your crimp looks fine. Not too aggressive and I do not see any residual flare.
I think you've missed the point a bit. It isn't the alignment of the die to the shell holder that is the issue.
From these last pictures, I'd lean heavily toward not starting the bullet, into the case, straight.
The Lyman style expander will help the bullet stay in position, but it takes more than that to straighten out a bullet which enters the seating die while crooked
It's not the shell holder, cases are not tight in the shell holders. They move back/forth/up/down, it's called self centering.
It's the use of the wrong expander for the bullet you're using plain and simple.
The top of the lee expander unscrews without changing your expander die adjustment. Unscrew it and take the expander ball/rod out. Take a good look at it, you will clearly be able to see a line (high water mark) on it left from where the top of the brass made it. Hold that up next to a case aligning the high water mark with the top of a piece of 45acp brass. Make a mark on that piece of brass where the bottom of that expander is. Now hold one of your bullets up to that same piece of brass just like it was seated in that piece of brass and note where the bottom of the bullet is in comparison with the line where the lee factory expander quit expanding. BIG difference. The other thing to keep in mind is that the lee expander is tapered not strait walled like a lyman m-die.
What is actually happening:
The brass is typically oversized/sized too small in most reloading dies. Take a fired case measure it and then size it and re-measure it. It's nothing to see 10/1000th's+ difference in diameter between the 2 at the mouth of the case. Then the lee expander isn't expanding the case deep enough or wide enough because of the taper of the expander. The mouth of the case would flare so much you wouldn't be able to fit it into the seating die if you ran that expander deep enough to expand the case deep enough. The m-dies were designed for longer lead bullets, rcbs had "cowboy action dies" & now they use a m-die setup. So now your case is over sized and under flared. If you were using a 35bhn??? copper jacketed bullet it would act as a bulldozer as you seated it and expand the case where the tapered short lee expander didn't as it gets seated.
The problem is your using a 12bhn plated bullets that's larger in diameter. As you try to seat it in the under expanded case it will turn to the least point of resistance. It's taking so much force to seat that plated bullet that your seating die stem is digging into the top of the bullet. That digging action is also locking/holding the bullet a whatever angle the bullet ended up at when the excessive force was applied. More often then not the bullet will not be strait because after the flare (+/-1/8") the bullet has to act like a bulldozer and fight the rest of the way into the case.
Any time you see wasp waist, bullet bulge, bullet base in your reloaded cases that's telling you that your not expanding the case enough/the wrong expander.
Any time you see rings/dig marks in the bullets you stand a good chance of the bullets will not start strait or end up strait in your case.
A cast bullet, coated bullet & plated bullets are all the same and should not be treated any different. They are soft compared to their jacketed counterparts, anywhere for 6bhn to 18bhn. What copper jackets 30bhn?/35bhn? They've made dies for lead bullets for decades, the difference is the expander plug when comparing standard dies to dies made for lead bullets.
If you were using 16bhn/18bhn commercial cast bullets you wouldn't be having the problem that you are with the plated bullets. Both are the same diameter but the harder cast bullet allows you to hammer them into the under expanded cases without all the drama.
It's the use of the wrong expander for the bullet you're using plain and simple.
The top of the lee expander unscrews without changing your expander die adjustment. Unscrew it and take the expander ball/rod out. Take a good look at it, you will clearly be able to see a line (high water mark) on it left from where the top of the brass made it. Hold that up next to a case aligning the high water mark with the top of a piece of 45acp brass. Make a mark on that piece of brass where the bottom of that expander is. Now hold one of your bullets up to that same piece of brass just like it was seated in that piece of brass and note where the bottom of the bullet is in comparison with the line where the lee factory expander quit expanding. BIG difference. The other thing to keep in mind is that the lee expander is tapered not strait walled like a lyman m-die.
What is actually happening:
The brass is typically oversized/sized too small in most reloading dies. Take a fired case measure it and then size it and re-measure it. It's nothing to see 10/1000th's+ difference in diameter between the 2 at the mouth of the case. Then the lee expander isn't expanding the case deep enough or wide enough because of the taper of the expander. The mouth of the case would flare so much you wouldn't be able to fit it into the seating die if you ran that expander deep enough to expand the case deep enough. The m-dies were designed for longer lead bullets, rcbs had "cowboy action dies" & now they use a m-die setup. So now your case is over sized and under flared. If you were using a 35bhn??? copper jacketed bullet it would act as a bulldozer as you seated it and expand the case where the tapered short lee expander didn't as it gets seated.
The problem is your using a 12bhn plated bullets that's larger in diameter. As you try to seat it in the under expanded case it will turn to the least point of resistance. It's taking so much force to seat that plated bullet that your seating die stem is digging into the top of the bullet. That digging action is also locking/holding the bullet a whatever angle the bullet ended up at when the excessive force was applied. More often then not the bullet will not be strait because after the flare (+/-1/8") the bullet has to act like a bulldozer and fight the rest of the way into the case.
Any time you see wasp waist, bullet bulge, bullet base in your reloaded cases that's telling you that your not expanding the case enough/the wrong expander.
Any time you see rings/dig marks in the bullets you stand a good chance of the bullets will not start strait or end up strait in your case.
A cast bullet, coated bullet & plated bullets are all the same and should not be treated any different. They are soft compared to their jacketed counterparts, anywhere for 6bhn to 18bhn. What copper jackets 30bhn?/35bhn? They've made dies for lead bullets for decades, the difference is the expander plug when comparing standard dies to dies made for lead bullets.
If you were using 16bhn/18bhn commercial cast bullets you wouldn't be having the problem that you are with the plated bullets. Both are the same diameter but the harder cast bullet allows you to hammer them into the under expanded cases without all the drama.
Some people use words differently. Am using "squaring a die" to the shell holder differently to "aligning it". By squaring the die you are attempting to get the vertical axis of the die at 90 degrees to the horizontal axis of the shell holder. Likely not the situation the op is concerned with, but something fairly easy to do. Granted usually more related to rifle cartridges.
https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2014/02/12/lack-of-concentricity/
Depending on the makes of brass being mixed, some die adjustments may not work well for all of them.
https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2014/02/12/lack-of-concentricity/
Depending on the makes of brass being mixed, some die adjustments may not work well for all of them.
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to check rounds for straight seating: roll round on a flat surface using good back-lighting. you can see a crooked round with your bare eye.
pull the two-piece seating stem out of your seating die and see if you can push your bullet all the way through the die without forcing it. should be a tight fit without forcing it. if it gets stuck, clean out the die.
your seating stem is probably cone shaped and very rough. i took a round stone to my 45lc seating stem and removed all burrs.
i agree with the "not enough flair" people. to check for sufficient flair, take a bullet and place it onto a flaired case. the bullet should stay straight when you move it side-to-side on top of the case.
luck,
murf
pull the two-piece seating stem out of your seating die and see if you can push your bullet all the way through the die without forcing it. should be a tight fit without forcing it. if it gets stuck, clean out the die.
your seating stem is probably cone shaped and very rough. i took a round stone to my 45lc seating stem and removed all burrs.
i agree with the "not enough flair" people. to check for sufficient flair, take a bullet and place it onto a flaired case. the bullet should stay straight when you move it side-to-side on top of the case.
luck,
murf
RCBS and Redding both make expander dies with the same profile.
Just an option to allow you to price shop a bit
Blue68f100
Member
If you think your die alignment is off, there is quick easy way to center it. Just place a piece of brass in the shell holder and have the locking clamp loose ( so the die can move) on the body. Now run the ram up and the die body will align to it, lock down the adjustment. Another option is to remove the retainer that holds the shell holder, allowing it to float. Though this is not needed since most shell holders have extra space for the base to move. I've seen some where they removed the metal retainer clip holding the shell holder and replaced it with a o-ring. This keeps it from falling out but allows it to move easily.
Most all the threads on all things have some play/looseness in them. If they were 100% it wold be very difficult to run in and out. Most all threads these days are cut a 60%.
Most all the threads on all things have some play/looseness in them. If they were 100% it wold be very difficult to run in and out. Most all threads these days are cut a 60%.
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