.45 ACP Thin Rim

[emptybrass]

Hope it is ok to post this here, since I discovered this while shooting reloads. I had finished shooting a group of 10 .45 ACP reloads (third batch...still new at reloading) and decided to plink away with some factory ammo I had with me. After about five rounds, I had a failure to eject. Once I cleared the gun, the pic below shows what I found. The rim of the faulty round (right shell) was barely thick enough to contain the head stamp. If you look at the extreme right side of the rim, you can see where the extractor actually bent the rim trying to extract the spent casing. I have never seen this before and was wondering if this was common or not? Makes me want to thoroughly inspect each SD round. Also is a pic of the factory box for the faulty round.


Thin Rim by Randy Digby, on Flickr


Thin Rim Source Box by Randy Digby, on Flickr

 

[Sam1911]

Nope. I've not seen that one before. But I've seen worse things come through factory ammo quality checks.

I once saw a guy jam his 1911 HARD during the IDPA National Matches, bacin '08. When we finally got the gun cleared, a .45 ACP popped out that had somehow been loaded in a case that had never been trimmed to length and was easily 1/4" too long. The case mouth was crimped right down over the bullet, with just the front half of the bullet ogive visible. It looked...um...distinctly biological, but this being THR, you'll have to imagine that for yourself.

Wouldn't have believed it possible for that to make it through quality control. And, in fact, was awful surprised this dude didn't notice it when loading his mags!

 

[Rico567]

Got a box of Federal Match .223 cases, one had a deformed case mouth. It was the only one in the box that had a problem, though. Quality control is like every other aspect of manufacturing. Nothing is 100%, why we inspect.

 

[ReloaderFred]

If you'll contact Winchester Customer Service and include the lot number and the picture, plus one of the headstamp, they'll probably make it right for you. Stuff happens when manufacturing millions of items per week/month.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Swampman]

When I saw the title, I was sure it was gonna be a Federal case. I've only seen two cases with rims so thin that they bent rather than extracting the case. Both were Federals, and both occured in the last couple of years.

You'd think with all the technology we've got these days that a problem like that would be both less likely to occur and more likely to be caught by QC if it did, but I guess not.

I guess the old fashioned "Mark 1, Mod Zero" eyeball of human inspectors isn't as outmoded as a lot of people think.

I guess that's a good thing for all us do-it-yourselfers!

 

[Rico567]

This comes up in every forum I visit that involves a manufactured product, I supposed it's most noticeable with cars. Every manufactured product -EVERY- has a defect rate. It may be quite low, even .001%, but it's there, and sooner or later someone gets the lemon. To completely eliminate defects, to make a product that is actually 100% perfect, would raise the selling price so high none of us would be willing to pay it.
It's perhaps easiest to think of it as finding needles in haystacks. Got a hundred in there? Easy to find one. Ten? Not so easy. Then we get down to "a." The time expended to find "a" needle grows, until finding the last one is on a curve that has grown exponential.
As was stated, as reloaders our only defense is procedures that find such defects, the human eye, and our undivided attention.

 

[stressed]

aaand it's WWB no surprise there.

 

[243winxb]

new plant, employees & machinery = Defects

Winchester has problems, heres more factory ammo. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=743763 And primers http://s338.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/library/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/Primer%20Gas%20Leak And don't forget the current 22LR ammo recall. http://www.winchester.com/library/news/Pages/s22lrt-recall.aspx "may contain double powder charges."

 

[KansasSasquatch]

Winchester has problems, heres more factory ammo. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=743763

Nothing against the good people of Mississippi but it DOES seem like there's been a lot more problems with Winchester ammo since that plant opened. I've always had issues with their rimfire ammo, which oddly seems to be improving, but I used to really like Winchester's centerfire stuff. I won't touch it now. When/if I buy factory ammo these days it's usually something from Federal or Hornady, depending on caliber.

 

[ReloaderFred]

Rico567 hit the nail on the head. Nobody is perfect, and no manufacturer is perfect.

If those who complain about brand "X" being the worst have never made a mistake themselves, then by all means volunteer your time to the management of brand "X" to help them make a "perfect" product.

Stuff happens, and sometimes it gets by the inspectors. Look at your own process and see how many mistakes you yourself have made over the years, and you have complete control over every step of the process.

All these forums are full of complaints about this or that, but very few compliments for the millions of rounds of good ammunition from the same companies. I guess that's human nature, fair or not, but it's not realistic, in my not so humble opinion.

And no, this isn't a rant, just a simple statement of fact, as I see it.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[emptybrass]

My OP is not a rant or bashing of any manufacturer or supplier. It is just sharing a defect that I have never seen, so someone else might be the wiser down the road. I haven't put as many rounds downrange as 95% of the shooters that post here. I took a forty year break and just now decided to get back into the sport and finally starting reloading as well. I worked in industry for 37 years manufacturing consumer use products. I understand QC, defects, Six Sigma, Lean Manufacturing, and etc. and have forgotten more "quality" expressions than most people hear in a lifetime.

I, personally, have never intentionally looked at rim thickness on any round that I have ever loaded. If I was doing that when I loaded this round, the picture would not be of a spent round. I will, in the future, inspect the rim thickness of all rounds loaded for self defense. I know that I'll probably never see another one of these in my life time. I would not want anyone here to need the round following one of these I encountered in a true self defense situation.

Be safe...

 

[Lj1941]

I am wondering if Winchester makes their own brass or purchases it from another manufacter like ATK (FEDERAL) .

 

[ReloaderFred]

emptybrass,

My comments weren't aimed at you, or really anyone else. It's just what I've seen on these forums as a pattern. My best advice to you was in Post # 4 of this thread.

Lj1941,

Yes, Winchester makes their own brass. Some other companies have contracted for outside brass when they couldn't meet demand, but not Winchester. Speer had Starline make them a bunch of 357 Sig brass sometime back, which is marked with a small "s" on the headstamp, and has a smaller flash hole. Black Hills Ammunition has their brass made by Starline and in the past by Dan Scharch, before he sold his business, Scharch Manufacturing/Top Brass.

It always pays to check all components when reloading, or depending on ammunition for life threatening situations. I used to do the inspection of duty ammunition for our department when I was rangemaster, and defects do make it through the inspection process.

In my 51 years of reloading experience, I've found new brass without flash holes, bullets that were mixed by weight and/or caliber and primers without either priming compound or an anvil. I've had factory ammunition without powder and deformed cases and bullets.

It doesn't make any difference the manufacturer, stuff happens. If it didn't, there wouldn't be any need for warrantees, now would there?

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[emptybrass]

No problem Fred. Ammo without powder...A good case for a wheel gun! Or, please kind bad guy, do you have a hammer and small brass rod I could borrow?

Good forum here. I have learned so much to do and a lot of things not to do as well.

 

[Swampman]

I wasn't bashing Federal in my post. I love their handgun brass and have a bunch of it. The fact is that I've only seen this particular problem twice, both times with Federal .45 ACP brass and both quite recently.

I was actually more lamenting the fact that high labor costs have replaced a lot of humans with machines in the inspection process. Yes, there will always be defective products made and some of them will slip past QC, but I've opened and fired the contents of a fair share of WWII ammo cans and ammo with gross defects is very rare.

I think that the low defect rate of that old ammo is due to the increased number of human inspectors compared to commercial ammo manufactured today. I know that inspection on that scale would make ammo much more expensive, that's why I pretty much only shoot my own handloads these days except for .22 rimfire.

And if I could make that better myself, I would.

Originally posted by ReloaderFred

Speer had Starline make them a bunch of 357 Sig brass sometime back, which is marked with a small "s" on the headstamp, and has a smaller flash hole.

THANK YOU!
You solved a minor mystery for me.
I've been loading with Speer .357 SIG cases for years and never had a problem, but the last batch I got just about had me pulling out my hair!

I was loading with my Lee dies and the tight flasholes pulled the decapping pin right out of the press fit hole in the stem.

Then it did the same thing to my Lee universal decapper. :banghead:

I finally ended up getting them out with an RCBS .308 sizing die with a headed decapping pin.

Now I at least know the answer to part of the mystery.
What I can't figure out now is why regular Starline .357 brass doesn't do the same thing. I've never had any problems with it having tight flashholes.

Sorry for the hijack.

 

[kilibreaux]

Ammunition should not have a "defect rate."
Ammunition isn't something one can simply go "Oh well, I guess that round malfunctioned..."
Yet ANOTHER reason to load your own if you REALLY want ammo that fires with every fall of the hammer, fully cycles the gun, and delivers expected terminal energy.

 

[moxie]

That's a new one for me, despite over 20 years in the munitions business!

Agree on calling Winchester. They need to know about it.

Swampman,
There's some Bosnian "1K 03" 5.56 brass floating around out there that has the narrow flash holes that kill decapping pins, including the Lee Universal. Bad stuff.

 

[Swampman]

Originally posted by kilibreaux

Ammunition should not have a "defect rate."

EVERYTHING made by humans is going to have a defect rate, including your most carefully assembled handloads.


If you load and shoot enough rounds, eventually you're gonna load one that's less than perfect and thus "defective".

We do our best to minimize the number and severity of those defects, but anyone that has convinced themselves that they can make every round they load perfect, is heading for a fall.

 

[ReloaderFred]

kilibreaux,

You're asking for absolute perfection in something you will probably never need your entire life, but on the off chance that you "may".

Wouldn't it make more sense to ask for that same perfection in your car/truck, which is something that you depend on every day for your safety and the safety of those you love? We think nothing of taking a vehicle in for warranty work, some of which is definitely related to safety, but at the same time ask the ammunition manufacturers to walk on water.

I was a cop for 26 years, and I saw many, many, many more people killed by cars than ever with a bullet. Let's keep things in perspective, ok? Just sayin'............

Hope this helps.

Fred