jimmyraythomason
Member
230 gr Ball. If it was good enough for the United States Military for over 80 years it is good enough for me . Overpenetration isn't a concern here.
.45 Defensive Ammo Choices
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GunNut
Member
Muzzleloaders were pretty effective too, why not stick to them?
Why? Because there are better guns and rounds available today.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Higher tech.maybe, more expensive certainly but not necessarily better. The ball ammo was intended as a manstopper and was designed with that job (and no other) in mind. Bottom line 230 gr. ball will do the job. I trust my life to it.
32winspl
Member
Jimmy Ray, the reason that fmj's have been used for the last 100 years or so isnt because they are such good defense rounds, but because they don't expand and therefore meet the requirements of the Geneva Convention (or other) . No millitary legally uses rounds capable of "mushrooming", or expanding to more than bore size.
...Am I the only person here that understands why using fmj's is a bad idea for self-defense?
.... How many people here use non-expanding bullets to hunt deer? Why not?
Good grief!
...Am I the only person here that understands why using fmj's is a bad idea for self-defense?
.... How many people here use non-expanding bullets to hunt deer? Why not?
Good grief!
GunNut
Member
The technology was not there 80 years ago to produce a HP bullet that worked like the ones we use today. They used ball because that was what was available.
I'm not putting down your choice, confidence in your self defense load is all that matters.
I'm not putting down your choice, confidence in your self defense load is all that matters.
jimmyraythomason
Member
It's a good thing that Sgt.Alvin York didn't know that he was using an inferior round it 1918.
orionengnr
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Sorry, but that's a red herring. He had no choice in the matter; there was nothing else out there. Besides, it wasn't inferior to anything else available at the time.
When I first started driving, my 69 Chevelle was pretty hot. If I owned it today, it would be worth a buck or two, but only as a collector car.
It had an 8-track, skinny bias ply tires, drum brakes, no ABS, no airbags...
Get it? Times change. Progress happens. You may ignore it if you like, but you may not deny it (except by sticking your head in the sand...).
When I first started driving, my 69 Chevelle was pretty hot. If I owned it today, it would be worth a buck or two, but only as a collector car.
It had an 8-track, skinny bias ply tires, drum brakes, no ABS, no airbags...
Get it? Times change. Progress happens. You may ignore it if you like, but you may not deny it (except by sticking your head in the sand...).
jimmyraythomason
Member
So why didn't you have a '69 Ford Mustang Mach 1? They came with front disc brakes and an audio cassette player. Shoot what you want just don't tell me that a Colt 1911 in .45ACP the cartridge designed for it is not a PROVEN manstopper with ball ammo. The bullet market has exploded with bigger,better,smarter,stronger ,you name it wonder slugs. They all will kill a man. Pick your poison and let me pick mine.
jabotinsky
Member
I personally like the ball ammo in .45 for self defense, I don't think the added price for JHP is worth in that caliber.
#1
#2
Yes!!! Go right up the line and use what the U.S. Military used/uses. The .45ACP FMJ... Chosen partly because it is not a dum-dum (i.e. hollowpoint) so utterly defensable in court if necessary.
#3
I think that answers its own question.
#4
We are not talking about hunting deer with rifles at rifle velocities where bullets can be made to expand reliably. In handguns, as proven time and again, its bullet mass and cross section that determines reliable stops. Hollowpoint bullets in a large caliber will stop, whether they expand or not, due to mass and cross section. To discount fmj in the large calibers is just as foolish on this thread as it is on the other thread where this argument is made.
32spl said:
#2
32spl said:
Yes!!! Go right up the line and use what the U.S. Military used/uses. The .45ACP FMJ... Chosen partly because it is not a dum-dum (i.e. hollowpoint) so utterly defensable in court if necessary.
#3
32spl said:
I think that answers its own question.
#4
32spl said:
We are not talking about hunting deer with rifles at rifle velocities where bullets can be made to expand reliably. In handguns, as proven time and again, its bullet mass and cross section that determines reliable stops. Hollowpoint bullets in a large caliber will stop, whether they expand or not, due to mass and cross section. To discount fmj in the large calibers is just as foolish on this thread as it is on the other thread where this argument is made.
stephpd
Member
.45 ammo
Still got that Chevelle or Camaro, I'll give you a buck or two. They're selling for more then ya payed new.
For ammo I thought placement is better then speed or the size of the hole.
For self defense I would like all. Bigger hole, faster speed and better placement.
Thats why I prefer hollowpoint over fmj.
Hollowpoints make bigger hole.
Speed isn't the .45's strong point.
And placement?
Well I just practice more.
Still got that Chevelle or Camaro, I'll give you a buck or two. They're selling for more then ya payed new.
For ammo I thought placement is better then speed or the size of the hole.
For self defense I would like all. Bigger hole, faster speed and better placement.
Thats why I prefer hollowpoint over fmj.
Hollowpoints make bigger hole.
Speed isn't the .45's strong point.
And placement?
Well I just practice more.
Most people don't realize the reason behind the hollow point design.
INITIALLY Its primary design was not to make a larger hole, although that was a positive by-product of the design function.
In a "handgun Caliber" .............. the hollow point was designed to prevent over-penetration at close range encounters. Most ballistic experts recognized that a handgun bullet was more likely going to contact its target in a matter of a few feet ..........rather than a few yards......... and to that end they wanted a bullet that would penetrate and stop inside the target exhausting all of its energy inside. What better way to accomplish this goal, than to have the bullet's aero-dynamic shape [ built for flight to the target ] change causing the bullet to drastically dump off velocity. For the longest time rifle hunting cartridges accomplished this with various "soft point" designs ........... but this method of bullet deformation was not reliable at handgun velocities ......... born was the hollow point for pistol ammo. I am not saying this is when hollow point projectiles were invented -- only that serious design work started because of the above requirements.
Now a handgun bullet [ hollow point ] would expand [reliably ] and cause the projectile to dump all of its terminal velocity into a target only a few feet away without over penetration. A bullet exiting a target is not only dangerous, but a waste of energy [ whether or not that energy plays a significant role in stopping an attacker - that's another thread ]. The Fact that the bullet gets bigger was a welcomed by-product, but not the over riding objective. They could easily design bullets that would flatten out after striking their target .......but it was controlled penetration that the experts were after. 12" minimum seemed to become the standard in the industry.
The hollow point NEXT was required to provide sufficient penetration AND expansion while absorbing clothing as a "first barrier". So expansion then became a goal of the smart ammo makers, after penetration control was mastered.
Now companies had a platform to sell their ammo ..........and looked for new and exciting ways to draw in the handgunner. So they advertised bigger holes ......... because as we all know BIGGER IS ALWAYS BETTER !
Just remember ........ pistol ammo [ no matter the caliber ] is still pistol ammo.
The differences between high-end products - from the 9mm to the 45 acp is more hype than manstopping fact.
Stay safe -
JF.
INITIALLY Its primary design was not to make a larger hole, although that was a positive by-product of the design function.
In a "handgun Caliber" .............. the hollow point was designed to prevent over-penetration at close range encounters. Most ballistic experts recognized that a handgun bullet was more likely going to contact its target in a matter of a few feet ..........rather than a few yards......... and to that end they wanted a bullet that would penetrate and stop inside the target exhausting all of its energy inside. What better way to accomplish this goal, than to have the bullet's aero-dynamic shape [ built for flight to the target ] change causing the bullet to drastically dump off velocity. For the longest time rifle hunting cartridges accomplished this with various "soft point" designs ........... but this method of bullet deformation was not reliable at handgun velocities ......... born was the hollow point for pistol ammo. I am not saying this is when hollow point projectiles were invented -- only that serious design work started because of the above requirements.
Now a handgun bullet [ hollow point ] would expand [reliably ] and cause the projectile to dump all of its terminal velocity into a target only a few feet away without over penetration. A bullet exiting a target is not only dangerous, but a waste of energy [ whether or not that energy plays a significant role in stopping an attacker - that's another thread ]. The Fact that the bullet gets bigger was a welcomed by-product, but not the over riding objective. They could easily design bullets that would flatten out after striking their target .......but it was controlled penetration that the experts were after. 12" minimum seemed to become the standard in the industry.
The hollow point NEXT was required to provide sufficient penetration AND expansion while absorbing clothing as a "first barrier". So expansion then became a goal of the smart ammo makers, after penetration control was mastered.
Now companies had a platform to sell their ammo ..........and looked for new and exciting ways to draw in the handgunner. So they advertised bigger holes ......... because as we all know BIGGER IS ALWAYS BETTER !
Just remember ........ pistol ammo [ no matter the caliber ] is still pistol ammo.
The differences between high-end products - from the 9mm to the 45 acp is more hype than manstopping fact.
Stay safe -
JF.
Where's the proof on the "carry what local LEO carrys and you're safer"
I like the Golden Sabre Bonded in 45 ACP since it does OK in most barrel lengths and is reasonably priced online.
Carrying FMJ is OK, but generally silly unless one is hard up for cash or the gun can't feed JHP. Why NOT pick up some performance benefits?
I've spent a good bit of time on LEXIS, Westlaw, and the internet looking, and I have a really hard time with the idea that using the local LE ammo is a liability bonus (either in criminal or civil) over any other bullet.
From what I can tell, virtually all shootings come down to if the shooting ittself was good or bad, and the bullet involved is a very small item. To be fair, last I checked (~2004) the only OVER penetration case I could find was 00 buck from a LE shotgun.
If you carry magic depleted uranium teflon coated black JHP, and are involved in a legit shooting, its a small issue. If you carry local LEO golddots or whatever, its not going to matter much. Imagine the plaintiff's attorney on that issue:
"he carefully picked the same bullet the local police department uses...do remember when they were involved the questionable shooting of X, no doubt he heard it on the news and wanted the same sort of ability"
If anyone knows of a verfiable case where ammo selection mattered, I want to hear it.
I like the Golden Sabre Bonded in 45 ACP since it does OK in most barrel lengths and is reasonably priced online.
Carrying FMJ is OK, but generally silly unless one is hard up for cash or the gun can't feed JHP. Why NOT pick up some performance benefits?
I've spent a good bit of time on LEXIS, Westlaw, and the internet looking, and I have a really hard time with the idea that using the local LE ammo is a liability bonus (either in criminal or civil) over any other bullet.
From what I can tell, virtually all shootings come down to if the shooting ittself was good or bad, and the bullet involved is a very small item. To be fair, last I checked (~2004) the only OVER penetration case I could find was 00 buck from a LE shotgun.
If you carry magic depleted uranium teflon coated black JHP, and are involved in a legit shooting, its a small issue. If you carry local LEO golddots or whatever, its not going to matter much. Imagine the plaintiff's attorney on that issue:
"he carefully picked the same bullet the local police department uses...do remember when they were involved the questionable shooting of X, no doubt he heard it on the news and wanted the same sort of ability"
If anyone knows of a verfiable case where ammo selection mattered, I want to hear it.
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