.45 GAP Compared to +P .45 ACP

[petej88]

Regarding: Dick Metcalf’s Shooting Times article entitled, “.45 GAP Versus .45 ACP: The .45 GAP Wins!â€, May 2004:

OK, Dick’s article did not address +P factory .45 ACP ammo in his comparison. When comparing .45 GAP ammo against standard pressure .45 ACP ammo, obviously the gap holds its own very well and is certainly not a short & weak caliber as many originally predicted. In fact, even the Glock 37 recoil was more mellow than the Colt Series 80 Commander with a Dick Heinie 4.5†barrel, according to Dick Metcalf.

In the near future we will be able to compare +P .45 ACP ammo against the hottest .45 GAP ammo made by Cor-Bon (another kind of apples and apples). I predict that even when this comparison becomes public, there won’t be a significant difference between the two calibers. Why do I say that? Let’s look at Cor-Bon’s current +P .45 ACP loads:

5 inch barrel firing .45 ACP +P ammo:
165 grain +P 1250 fps/573 ft/lbs of energy
185 grain +P 1150 fps/543 ft/lbs of energy
200 grain +P 1050 fps/490 ft/lbs of energy
230 grain +P 950 fps/461 ft/lbs of energy

I predict Cor-Bon will come fairly close to the same velocities with the .45 GAP caliber, based on reloading data. For example:

4.5 inch barrel firing .45 GAP ammo:
200 grain GAP N340 1047 fps/486 ft/lbs of energy
230 grain GAP Longshot 974 fps avg/484 ft/lbs of energy (Note: the multiple times fired reused brass that was used in this full power load still dropped completely into the Glock barrel chamber all the way. The fired brass had no bulging or pressure signs of any kind.)

Folks, whether you want to admit it or not, the .45 GAP is far exceeding even what the original developers of the cartridge projected.

 

[pbhome71]

I think the 45GAP is ok. I am waiting for a more compact pistol.

-Pat

 

[kernal_panic]

too bad its chambered in a gun likely to explode in your hand if it doesn't jam 1st.

i'll pass. make mine STEEL and in .357 magnum thank you.

 

[BluesBear]

Just think because of the .45crap er, um I mean .45Gap, all of those inane 9mm vs .45 articles in the gun magazines over the past 30 years will now be obsolete instead of only meaningless.

 

[petej88]

good point

 

[Fatelvis]

I just dont understand the 45 GAP. Are the gains really worth mentioning? Ill stick with a 1911 45, thank you.

 

[JohnK]

I just dont understand the 45 GAP. Are the gains really worth mentioning? Ill stick with a 1911 45, thank you.

Ballistically I don't think there's a spits worth of difference between them. But for people with small hands and/or short fingers I think there is enough difference to mention. I know that given the same bullet at the same speed I'd take a Sig 226 over a 220, or a Glock 17 size grip vs 21 size in a heartbeat.

Of course right now there isn't a Sig in 45 GAP, but I think the chances are good there will be one eventually.

 

[Fatelvis]

Im not really familiar with Sigs pistols, but would the grip of a GAP Sig be that much smaller than that of a 220?

 

[JohnK]

Supposedly the 45 GAP fits in a 9mm size grip, if thats true then yes it would be quite a bit smaller. I have a 220, it has a pretty deep grip, much more so than the 226 pistols I've fired.

Now if the "9mm size grip" is all marketing hype and not reality then all bets are off.

Has anyone here handled both a G17/19 and a G37 side by side to compare them?

 

[petej88]

The G17 and G37 have exactly the same grip.

 

[dandean316]

From the www.45gap.com website:

Some might say the 45GAP is actually an improvement over the older .45 ACP cartridge, because a fair amount of space in the ACP case is usually empty anyway, even with +P .45 ACP ammo.

Ok, so we've been underloading .45 ACP for 100 years. Therefore, the .45 ACP can be loaded hotter (.45 super levels). So the GAP is loaded to the max, and the ACP is not. So comparing the GAP vs ACP is kind of apples to oranges. Maybe the debate should be why aren't we loading the ACP to higher levels. It can be done.

I find it funny the GAP was introduced as a cartridge for people with smaller hands - I am pretty sure this was a AH article early on. I've found people with smaller hands prefer smaller calibers like the 9mm or .38 special. Besides the 10+1 is touted a lot by the GAP crowd, which puts you into the double stacks, which, with a wider grip usually doesn't work for people with smaller hands.

Another question I have is: I find many people can't (or don't like to) shoot 230gr +P ACP loads. I find most factory loads in the middle. So are those in the middle at the 21,000? Or are they actually less pressure?

So does the +P ACP loads have the same pressure as the regular GAP loads? If so, it makes no sense for people with smaller hands (generally) to shoot the GAP. And as far as compactness, how much smaller do you want? There's plenty of reliable 3" 1911's out there.

It wouldn't suprise me if the GAP does well. I think the Glock crowd and 1911 crowd are different enough for this to work.

 

[Archie]

The GAP is probably okay.

However, I'm already set up for 45 ACP. 1911's fit my hand well, unlike the double stack Glocks, SIG-Sauers and H&Ks.

I might like a single stack 45 GAP, if it were single stack and in a configuration I like and can use. Like a 1911 shortened fore and aft in the grip area. But I see no point in re-doing a regular 1911 to the GAP cartridge; why spend the money to have a different round do the same thing?

For those parts of the world banning 'military' calibers, it's a good solution. For me, it's rather pointless.

Oh yes, J. M. Browning designed the 45 ACP as a low to moderate pressure round. That way, one doesn't beat the gun to death and one avoids blown out webs and extraction failures and such. So the +P 45 ACP loadings are a deviation from the function, not a progression.

Thanks anyhow, but a 230 grain HP bullet at 850-900 fps is just fine for my defense.

 

[355sigfan]

The Gap is already loaded at its max pressure. It has no where to go. The 45 acp will continue to trash it with +p ammo. The gap will probably be a memory and a collectors item in a few years.
Pat

 

[Ultima-Ratio]

But What If?

Why not run a reamer into the Glock barrel extending the chamber and then short loading the acp to proper OAL for the short magazines?
bRASS IS ALOT EASIER TO FIND!

 

[petej88]

The Gap is already loaded at its max pressure. It has no where to go. The 45 acp will continue to trash it with +p ammo.

That's a way wrong statement. The .45 GAP Speer loads are only between 19,200 to 20,500 psi (equivalent to .45 ACP standard pressure).

The reason you can't load the .45 ACP hotter or the .45 ACP+ hotter is that the limit of the brass is 21,000 psi and 23,000 psi respectively. The GAP brass has been tested up to 35,000 psi, by the way. The only way to kick the Gap's butt is to use a high recoil .45 Super if that is your thing. Whether you like it or not, or whether you choose to admit it or not, the GAP is in the same ballpark as the .45 ACP.

See the following link for some comparisons, and also to show how mild the GAP can shoot for those into Minor Power. Even folks who were laughing at the GAP a year ago are changing their minds after test firing the gap. One person on the 45GAP talk forum (who used to be on the other side) said that the gap is one of the most accurate pistols he's ever shot.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/petej/45gap.45acp.plusp.htm

I don't want to disappoint you naysayers too much, but folks that have fired equivalent ammo thru the gap and the G21 (ACP) find the recoil similar or even a tad lighter in the G37. Those ain't my words. They come from several sources. Do a search in the gap talk forum for some more info.

 

[Bullet]

45 ACP vs. 45 GAP not really. I thought Glock was trying to make a 45 ACP fit in the 9mm but it didn't work so they came up with 45 GAP which is the same bullets at about the same speeds. The 45 GAP cases are new and supposed to be stronger than 45 ACPs. I wanted a Glock 45 ACP but the grips just didn't fit me right so when they came out with the 45 GAP I purchased one and the grips fit me just right. I'm not sure what the big deal about the 45 GAP is. To me it's a 45 ACP in a smaller frame.

 

[355sigfan]

That's a way wrong statement. The .45 GAP Speer loads are only between 19,200 to 20,500 psi (equivalent to .45 ACP standard pressure).
END QUOTE

Sorry pete your wrong. According to an article comparing the Gap and the ACP in this months Handguns Magazine. The Gap and the +p 45 acp are loaded to 25000 cup. While standard pressure 45 acp tops out at 19.900 cup.
Pat

 

[halvey]

If the GAP is cut down ACP is loaded to 35,000 PSI, then why can't the ACP be loaded to the same levels?

I guess I don't see how, all else being equal, cut down brass can outperform the same in longer brass if the pressure is the same.

.454 Casull outperforms .45 Colt
.44 Mag outperforms .44 Special
.357 mag outperforms .38 special
9mm outperforms 9x18

All the latter in the above are cut down versions of the same thing (or the former are lengthened if you will.

So how can a cut down ACP outperform the original if all else is equal?

 

[Black Snowman]

So how can a cut down ACP outperform the original if all else is equal?

Marketting hype. When I get a .45 auto, it's going to be set up for .45 Super. In the mean time my 9mm, 40 S&W and 10mm will just have to do the job.

 

[petej88]

Sorry pete your wrong. According to an article comparing the Gap and the ACP in this months Handguns Magazine. The Gap and the +p 45 acp are loaded to 25000 cup. While standard pressure 45 acp tops out at 19.900 cup.

No, no, no. You and I are referring to two different sources for our data. My source is obviously much more accurate than yours. And the saami max for ACP is 21,000 and +P max is 23,000. The Speer GAP ammo is indeed between 19,500 and 20,500 which is close to the 19,900 cup max you mentioned for ACP.

Some of my super accurate reloads for minor power operate at 16,800 to 17,500.

Folks that have compared equivalent ammo between the GAP and ACP are saying that the difference in recoil is minimal at best. We are arguing about a moot point.

If the GAP is cut down ACP is loaded to 35,000 PSI, then why can't the ACP be loaded to the same levels?

The max 35,000 pressure for the GAP was for test purposes only. The point to remember is that the GAP IS NOT just a cut down .45 ACP. The case has been completely reworked inside & out -- read that as "very strong'. Much more details available at the gap page.

If you don't like the GAP, nobody is forcing you to buy it or use it. Enjoy your .45 ACP or whatever. No big deal. If you do not like the fact that the GAP really works well, and is exceptionally accurate, that's ok too.

 

[halvey]

The case has been completely reworked inside & out -- read that as "very strong'

I see.

So it's really a .45 Super cut down.

I guess until Clark blows up some GAP's, I'll pass.

If you don't like the GAP, nobody is forcing you to buy it or use it.

Right. But you are touting it's the same performance as the ACP. In a way better. We are correcting you.

 

[petej88]

Right. But you are touting it's the same performance as the ACP. In a way better. We are correcting you.

You're touting the fact that it isn't, so we're correcting your silly error.

 

[355sigfan]

You're touting the fact that it isn't, so we're correcting your silly error
END QUOTE

Pete you clearly wrong on your stats. The pressure levels are what the article stated. I checked a few other sources as well. All of them state that the Gap is loaded to 45 acp +p levels to get 45acp standard pressure velocities.

The gap is what it is. Its a short 45 acp operating at higher pressures. Its a new round and your jumping on the badwagon like you tend to do. When they come out with the 45 gap necked down to a 40 you will probably change your toon. I used to be the same way. I loved the 40sw then the 357 sig because they were new. But there is no reason to inflate a cartridge you like and distort the facts. The Gap does not have the same top end power levels that the 45 acp does with +p loads. If both cartridges are loaded to their potential. The 45 acp will always be more powerfull. Thats the facts. The Gap on the other hand will always fit in a smaller gun. I don't think it will catch on because of the 40sw popularity. It will probably live on but in small numbers like the 357 sig and 10mm does. If you like it great. But don't piss on our legs and tell us its raining.
Pat

 

[355sigfan]

I checked your web site Pete. I find it amusing that you use Factory +p Corbon loads to compare to the hottest Gap reloads you can make. Then declare the Gap the winner. I can reload the 45 acp to levels much hotter than your gap reloads if I wish. Your site would have more credibility if it compared apples to apples. Not apples to oranges. If your comparing reloads compare reloads. If you wish to compare factory ammo. Then compare the fact the +P 230 grain Winchester Ranger in 45 acp is going 980 to the Gaps 850 with the same bullet.
Pat

 

[halvey]

The Gap on the other hand will always fit in a smaller gun.

Yup. And of course if companies would stock guns with thin grips and short triggers, we wouldn't even need that.

But don't piss on our legs and tell us its raining.

:banghead: