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.45 HK USP vs. Sig P220

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by SkinnyGrey, Sep 20, 2010.

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  1. SkinnyGrey

    SkinnyGrey Member

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    So, I'm sure this question has been posted many times before, but I am somewhat of a novice so please just humor me.

    In the .45 caliber, which is better between the HK USP and the Sig P220?
     
  2. 230therapy

    230therapy Member

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    What is the purpose of the gun? What attributes are you looking for?
     
  3. SkinnyGrey

    SkinnyGrey Member

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    Conceal carry and self defense.
     
  4. Prion

    Prion Member

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    Different, not better. I like the P220 better because it is a single stack and has better ergonomics for me. My USP .45 felt a bit like holding a 2x4. However, it holds 12 rounds to the P220's 8.

    They are both highly durable, accurate, and reliable.

    I am very biased however as the P220 is my favorite pistol and I recently traded my USP .45 to fund another. I found the Sig to be a smoother, more enjoyable gun to shoot.

    If the grip fits and you shoot it well the HK is great, otherwise you can't miss with the P220.
     
  5. Prion

    Prion Member

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    For concealed carry check out the compact or carry version of either model.
     
  6. 9teenEleven

    9teenEleven Member

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    I know this isn't what you asked, but if you want to conceal, then an HK45 would be the best choice. P220 is about as big as semi auto guns come (mainstream). The USP has a very (IMO needlessly) boxy slide that inhibits vision when looking down the sights. The best thing that the SIG has going for it is the trigger. I would go for a W. German p220 though if that is the route you decide.
     
  7. CPshooter

    CPshooter Member

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    I have owned a few H&Ks and also currently own a Sig P229 .40. While this particular Sig is a great gun, I still don't think Sig can touch H&K in the reliability/durability department. Overall, I think H&K makes a better combat/defense pistol than Sig does.

    I personally wouldn't carry either of those two guns, as they are both chunky guns for every day carry. I think there are much better options out there for dedicated concealed carry. That said, I would take the USP.45 over a P220 every single time.

    Good luck!
     
  8. Prion

    Prion Member

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    Show me evidence that the above statement is true. From my personal experience and what I've read that is an egregiously false statement.

    Both guns are legendary for durability/reliability.

    I get that you like HK more so just say it. Don't make some silly unfounded claim to prove your point.

    Get whichever is a better fit for you. Both are stone cold reliable.
     
  9. BlayGlock

    BlayGlock Member

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    I know you did not ask but have you considered the H&K 45. It has vastly improved ergonomics and a better trigger (generally) than the USP 45. Both are big guns and will be difficult to CCW however.
     
  10. Corporal K

    Corporal K member

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    I own a USP 45 and I had a 220 in the past. Both are great. The Sig is a little easier to carry concealed but they're both about the same in quality
     
  11. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Member

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    I own a USP Tactical 45 and a SIG P220SAO. Of the two, I prefer the SIG. It seems better built and much smoother. The trigger is worlds ahead of the HK, it feels better in the hand (and I have big enough hands that neither the HK, nor my G20, nor the Desert Eagle really presents problems for me), and mine has been more reliable than my HK.

    Plus the SIG is indisputably the better built gun, at least in my experience. My SIG has been buttery smooth with not so much as a machining or tool mark to be seen--obvious care went into its production.

    My HK on the other hand pretty much started cannibalizing itself. The washer on the end of the captive dual recoil assembly wore a hole in the frame from the inside of the dustcover. I am pretty sure the shiny metal visible from the inside of the frame is the backside of the serial number plate. And there was some galling of the frame rails as well. HK elitists and uber-snobs will tell you this is "acceptable," that it is "breaking in (yeah it's breaking something alright)" and that the way HK does its frame rails is superior to its mere mortal competitors ([clears throat]Glock-cough-cough) because "_________________."

    I say "at least my Glock isn't eating itself." Plus my Glock has a better trigger, and despite firing a more potent cartridge (10mm Auto vs. .45 ACP) has less perceived muzzle flip, greater capacity, and the advantage of actually being reliable enough to be useful. And it cost about half as much. O and did I mention IT'S NOT CHEWING HOLES IN ITS OWN FRIGGIN FRAME!!!!

    SO between the two, I'd take the SIG in a heartbeat. On pure principle, I don't see how it's even a competition--a better built alloy framed pistol that requires machining, heat treating, ect. vs. injection molded polymer on a $400 pistol with a $300 name. They both cost about the same, but even if you pay the same for them, there's only one $700 pistol between the two, and it's not the HK.

    Personally, I'm probably trading both of them away and getting at least another Glock.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  12. Shipwreck

    Shipwreck Member

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    Go look at the SIg Forum - Many of the guns are ONLY being made in the USA now - and people seem to be having a lot of trouble with the USA made ones. Especially the 220s it seems.

    It may be better now, but as of a few months ago, that was the feeling going across many of the boards. Many people now will only buy used German made Sigs because of the current SIg problems on the USA made ones...
     
  13. Prion

    Prion Member

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    I do go to the Sigforum and I read a lot of people disputing the claim the U.S. made 220's aren't reliable.

    What I read over there is 'my P220 goes bang every time I pull the trigger'.
     
  14. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    Having the opportunity to handle and test-fire an example of each might go a long way to answering many questions ...

    Which us a better truck? Ford or Chevy? Toyota or Nissan?

    When you ask such questions on an internet firearms enthusiasts forum you're going to get a lot of opinions and personal experiences.

    Do you want a plastic or metal frame?

    Do you want a single column or double column magazine?

    Do you have a preference for the trigger mode?

    Can you shoot either of them well?

    Both are good quality examples of their respective company product lines when it comes to service-type pistols.

    I've been to the Sig pistol armorer class, but not the HK USP pistol armorer class. I only know a couple of HK USP armorers. Parts and support is not exactly high on their list of favorite topics of conversation.

    The 220's with the external pivoting, plunger & spring tensioned extractors are the newest ones.

    As a long time owner and shooter of various .45's, and having shot examples of each design mentioned since they were introduced (which means back when the P220 was being imported as the Browning Double Action in the case of the Sig) ... I haven't felt the inclination to spend my own money on either of them. I prefer other makes/models ... but that's me.

    Try to find a way to rent and test-fire each and see if either interests you.

    There are going to be satisfied and unsatisfied owners of each brand to be found on the internet. Hardly surprising.

    I do own 9 pistols chambered in .45 ACP at the present. They include Colt, Ruger and S&W (both 3rd gen and M&P pistol). I anticipate my next .45 purchase is going to be another M&P, this time a compact (M&P 45c), and maybe followed by a Performance Center SW1911.

    Like I need 11 .45's ... :scrutiny: :neener:
     
  15. P30shtr

    P30shtr Member

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    "Try to find a way to rent and test-fire each and see if either interests you.

    There are going to be satisfied and unsatisfied owners of each brand to be found on the internet. Hardly surprising." Fastbolt

    ^^^THIS^^^
    I think your question is kind of lose,lose. Yes its a good question and you will get a little useful info but mostly you will get "I like this one." "I like that one." So yes, if you can def. try to fondle and shoot both of them to see which one YOU like best

    "Show me evidence that the above statement is true. From my personal experience and what I've read that is an egregiously false statement." Prion

    Now I'm no SIG expert but dont the 220's have extractor breakage issues or need replacing quite often ? Correct me if I'm wrong/elaborate, as I would like to know correct info. Thanks

    OP I say USPc .45 by the way or HK45c, good luck
     
  16. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    Depends on what you've heard and to what you're referring.

    I can remember when the older 220's (with the then-new American mag catch) had what was reportedly identified as some heat treating issues with some extractors which were breaking. I only heard about it because a nearby agency temporarily decertified some 220's due to broken extractors (old style breech block extractors). That was many years ago (early 80's?).

    The newer extractors designed for the machined slides used a different style of extractor. It was pre-tensioned to be able to retain sufficient tension after being snapped up inside the slide's extractor recess. We were told in the armorer class that it was also intended to be installed once, and that if ever removed it should be replaced with a new one (because the removal and attempted re-installation might decrease the remaining tension too much to allow for intended feeding & extraction). There were some reports of some of these guns having to be returned to Sig for new extractors.

    The newest extractor in the 220's is similar to the one previously adopted in the machined slides used in the other calibers, and which has proven itself to be a reliable design. (It sort of reminds me of an 870 extractor.) I remember asking in my armorer class why the Sig engineers hadn't simply adopted the existing external, pivoting extractor design which had proven itself to be reliable in the 226/229's, and the instructor said that it was a very good question to which he had no answer. Of course, that's exactly what they ended up doing later on.

    Now, if there's been some new development with the revised external extractor, I haven't had the chance to hear of it. I probably won't recert my Sig armorer status since I don't personally own any and only a handful of our folks have bought any.
     
  17. 230therapy

    230therapy Member

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    Both are very large guns. The HK is really bulky. Frankly, both need to be dressed around.

    You may wish to consider guns that are no taller than 4.75" from bottom of the magazine to top of the slide. This seems to be the sweet spot in balancing size versus concealment for many folks. The Glock 19/23/32 is a good gun to measure against in terms of dimensions.

    As for reliability, I have had two West German P220s, four American made P220s and an American made P220 Carry. All were fine, reliable pistols except the P220 Carry. It needed a trip back to the factory for tweaking. Once it came back, it was excellent.
     
  18. PO2Hammer

    PO2Hammer Member

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    The USP .45 is a great range gun, shot some of my best groups ever with it at the 50 yard line. It feeds any bullet shape, I like the match SWC's (jacketed) in it that caused feeding problems in Glocks and 1911's, the USP never bobbled them once.
    But, it a BIG gun.
    You have to train yourself not to ride the safety/decocker with a variant 1 USP, it can and will decock on you with the recoil. It can easily be converted to variant 9, DA/SA no decocker if you must ride the safety.
    The Sig P220 has great ergonomics, you just have to decide if you like it's unique manual of arms, the slide release placement, the DA/SA transition (I had trouble getting the first DA shot to hit in the same spot as the following SA shots during 25 yard bullseye shooting, in close it's fine).
    Definitely a lot slimmer than the USP in both the slide and frame.

    The Sig decocker is superior IMO to the HK decocker, that is it's nearly silent, and you can ease the hammer down to the DA position.
    The HK decocker drops the hammer hard on the safety block and make a loud 'clack'.

    Both are better than average and are mostly worth the extra money they cost.
    I prefer the USP slightly, but for CCW I would pick the Sig for it's slimness, lack of manual safety, and the decocker.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  19. Relc

    Relc Member

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    From what ive heard, the Sig has better performance, (smoother, more accurate) but the USP is the better combat gun, thats more rugged and reliable. Those are just the general things ive heard, i could be wrong.
     
  20. Dobe

    Dobe member

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    They are both top quality handguns. HK overall seems to be more innovative i.e., synthetic buffers on the recoil spring, ambidextous slide release and mag release, as well as adjustable back straps (some models).

    I like them both. Sig has the better DA trigger. Both are about equal on the SA trigger. The new HK's, HK45, P30, are wonderful designs, with both being ergonomic master pieces.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  21. Prion

    Prion Member

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    I don't recall this feature on either my USP 9 or .45. Dual recoil springs, yes, as does my Sig X-5 Tac.

    Don't know if other HK models have this feature.
     
  22. Dobe

    Dobe member

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    It's not. It's on the HK45 and P30.
     
  23. CPshooter

    CPshooter Member

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    lol..Don't get your panties in a bunch.

    I obviously have no physical proof in my possession to back up my claims. I made my statements based on my own perception of what quality and durability means to me. H&K's machine work is flawless. *edit* By flawless, I should say "perfectly machined as far as tolerances go." H&K doesn't care to polish out swirls made from the machining process. Instead, they tend to focus simply on whether or not it was machined to perfect specs and whether or not the parts mate well together where they need to (ie barrel to slide fit). Sig, on the other hand, will let pistols leave the factory with horrible defects like burrs that cause major galling, for example. Also, H&K's cold hammer forged barrels can't even be touched by Sig's two-piece construction. Try this: Buy a brand new H&K and a brand new Sig. Check the barrel and barrel hood after 200 and then 1000 rounds. Tell me which one is wearing more evenly and which looks to be built with closer/more accurate tolerances. Oh that's right..that would be the H&K's. To me, the wear on the metal parts of a gun tells the whole story.

    That's not even mentioning the current quality control issues and money-saving, el-cheapo tactics Sig Sauer is known for today. Face it. They aren't what they used to be. They now produce 10 blinged-out versions of every gun they make and making money is clearly their only priority. H&K, on the other hand, has been and continues to produce rock-solid utilitarian weapons with almost unheard of quality control as their main priority. They understand that without a consistent and high-quality product, they wouldn't be where they are today. Sure, they have a shrewd business model, but in the end their products reflect what kind of company they are.

    Another thing I'd like to mention is that a lot of people are bothered by the fact that H&Ks are polymer-framed pistols, yet cost a few hundred more than other polymer guns like Glocks, XDs, etc. I personally don't feel that just because Sigs have machined aluminum frames that they are any more worthy of a premium price over an H&K. You have to consider the entire package, whether of polymer or all-metal construction, and decide whether or not that weapon is worth the price to YOU. For me, H&Ks are worth every penny. I still own a few 9mm Glocks and several other guns as well, but H&K is what I'd choose if my life was on the line.

    We can argue about this all day, but in the end you shouldn't get your feelings hurt just because someone like me that owns BOTH guns, made a slightly subjective statement about which one he prefers.

    That said, I do love my Sig P229. It's a CPO gun w/o the rail up front. Paid $530 shipped for it and it was worth every penny. IMHO, these are the only Sigs worth owning. So far mine has been 100% reliable. I still won't buy another Sig though. This will be my one and only!

    2-1.gif
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2010
  24. RX-178

    RX-178 Member

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    Between these two, you're better off comparing features rather than reliability.

    Steel frame (Sig) vs Polymer (USP)
    DA/SA w/ Decocker (Sig) vs DA/SA w/ safety and decocker (USP)

    I personally prefer the USP because I like to carry in condition 1.
     
  25. CPshooter

    CPshooter Member

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    Another thing...

    I am not knocking the design of Sig Sauer pistols one bit. They are fantastic guns by design and when you get a good one, you should be proud to own one (like I am). But like I said before, when it comes to repeatability and overall reliability and quality control, I think H&K does a much better job than Sig at producing guns. This is equally as important as the design of the weapon.
     
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