So I have always wanted to create a wildcat and I think I found one. Its a .300 Win Mag case cut down to about 2 inches, can't remember exactly, then with a .45 caliber bullet put in it. And what would really cool, correct if wrong here, is the fact that the .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, and .454 Casull are .452 in diameter and can therefor be shot out of the same barrel. So you could shoot 150-400 grain bullets through the same gun. You could take anything from coyotes and small whitetail to grizzlies with it. I haven't really done much research just an idea rolling around and was just wondering if you guys on this forum, who have a lot more knowledge then me, would think this would be cool or if it would even work.
.45 wildcat
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tacxted
Member
as long as the bullet diameter is the same, then , u could reload bullets from the 45 150g range to the 454 400g range and shoot in your wildcat rifle
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Jim Watson
Member
That was first seen as the .458 American.
This was a .458 Win Mag cut off from 2.5" to 2.0" and taking the same .458" bullets as .45-70, .458, and nearly all other .45 RIFLES. You could, of course, use about any belted magnum brass opened up and shortened.
If you want to use pistol bullets, you need to round up a .451" barrel to shoot the .451-.452" pistol bullets.
For best results you would need a chamber reamer ground and loading dies made up to handle the smaller bullets.
Or you could just order .458 American stuff off the shelf and treat it like a bolt action .45-90, which is what Barnes visualized it as.
Or a .450 Marlin, which is a belted 2.1" case with wider belt than H&H dimensions to keep you from dropping one into a 7mm Mag and blowing it up.
This was a .458 Win Mag cut off from 2.5" to 2.0" and taking the same .458" bullets as .45-70, .458, and nearly all other .45 RIFLES. You could, of course, use about any belted magnum brass opened up and shortened.
If you want to use pistol bullets, you need to round up a .451" barrel to shoot the .451-.452" pistol bullets.
For best results you would need a chamber reamer ground and loading dies made up to handle the smaller bullets.
Or you could just order .458 American stuff off the shelf and treat it like a bolt action .45-90, which is what Barnes visualized it as.
Or a .450 Marlin, which is a belted 2.1" case with wider belt than H&H dimensions to keep you from dropping one into a 7mm Mag and blowing it up.
Well 45 rifles use .458 bullets and 45 pistols use .451 or .452 bullets so they aren't the same size but I do believe that several people have reloaded the pistol bullets into rifles in the past. I personally don't have any first hand knowledge on whether or not this is safe or if it would be accurate. I will now let others more experienecd than myself comment more on the matter.
But I don't plan on using rifle bullets. All of the .45 caliber bullets I stated were originally pistol rounds that were made into rifles later and a quick search will show that all of them are .452 in diameter except the .45 LC's that are straight lead and don't have a jacket on them, the ones that do are .452 like the rest. So I'm a bit confused on the .458 rifle thing as I don't plan on .45-70 or .458 Mag bullets. And at first I was just planning on using a H&R Handi Rifle in .45 LC and just reaming out the rear part of barrel that acts as the chamber.
tahunua001
Member
this sounds a lot like a 450 bushmaster to me... but then again I'm not much of a wildcatter.
The reason we mentioned rifle bullets is that what you described in your initial drescription was the 458 American which uses 458 bullets. You could have a custom reamer and loading dies made that would allow you to use the smaller pistol bullets but that would add cost to the project.
That would be a 284 Winchester cut to 1.7"
Ok thanks I was just a little confused. I knew there would be some extra expense, the reamers and die, that's why I decided to stick with the cheap (<$100) Handi rifles. On a side note I didn't know the .450 Bushmaster had such a wide range of bullet weights.
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Ok thanks I was just a little confused. I knew there would be some extra expense, the reamers and die, that's why I decided to stick with the cheap (<$100) Handi rifles. On a side note I didn't know the .450 Bushmaster had such a wide range of bullet weights.
BCRider
Member
If you cut out the chamber for the longer converted rifle case you will not be able to use the handgun ammo any longer. That's because there's nothing left to head space the smaller cases.
The .45Colt headspaces from the rim. So does the .454 Casull and the .460S&W Magnum. The .45 ACP has to headspace off the lip of the mouth. With the long chamber there's nothing to hold the ACP from slipping way down into the chamber and away from the firing pin. And because of the deeper recess to hold the belted head of the WinMag the chamber won't be able to hold the rims on the Long Colt, Cassul or .460 cases either. The rims would fall forward into the area for the belt and be well out of reach of the firing pin.
The next thing you want to consider is the amount of metal left after you re-chamber your barrel. Reaming out to the bigger case means you're removing a significant amount of metal. So you'll likely want to restrict your loads to some reasonable pressure that is lower than the 60 to 63K that is used in the WinMag loads.
You'll also want to proof test your new chamber at some higher than normal pressure and then never shoot at that load ever again... assuming the metal survives the proof testing shots at least.
All in all a safer way to get your wildcat barrel would be to start with a barrel chambered in the cartridge that you're starting with. And then have the barrel bored out and rifled or bored out and sleeved to the new desired size. At least that way you know that the barrel's chamber area is able to accept the full pressure for that round in its original form.
The .45Colt headspaces from the rim. So does the .454 Casull and the .460S&W Magnum. The .45 ACP has to headspace off the lip of the mouth. With the long chamber there's nothing to hold the ACP from slipping way down into the chamber and away from the firing pin. And because of the deeper recess to hold the belted head of the WinMag the chamber won't be able to hold the rims on the Long Colt, Cassul or .460 cases either. The rims would fall forward into the area for the belt and be well out of reach of the firing pin.
The next thing you want to consider is the amount of metal left after you re-chamber your barrel. Reaming out to the bigger case means you're removing a significant amount of metal. So you'll likely want to restrict your loads to some reasonable pressure that is lower than the 60 to 63K that is used in the WinMag loads.
You'll also want to proof test your new chamber at some higher than normal pressure and then never shoot at that load ever again... assuming the metal survives the proof testing shots at least.
All in all a safer way to get your wildcat barrel would be to start with a barrel chambered in the cartridge that you're starting with. And then have the barrel bored out and rifled or bored out and sleeved to the new desired size. At least that way you know that the barrel's chamber area is able to accept the full pressure for that round in its original form.
Edarnold
Member
Then again, if you plan on using jacketed pistol bullets at rifle velocities ( 700 fps vs. 2,000+ fps ), you can expect blow-up wounds against game animals, and disintegrating bullets exiting the muzzle. If you are planning on using only cast gas-checked bullets, you should be OK.
Not criticizing, just saying...
Not criticizing, just saying...
Edarnold I plan on using cast bullets, but if I ever use jacketed the only bullets I would have to worry about would be the .45 ACP because the other two are A. built to withstand speeds up to 1400-1800 fps and B. They are heavy enough, except maybe a light .45 LC, to bring the velocity down to below that of the .300 Win Mag enough that it shouldn't matter.
So if a re-barrel a .300 and ream out the front of the chamber so it can fit the fatter .45 bullets it should take of pressure and headspacing issues.
But that leaves me with a problem, the don't make Handi rifles in .300 Win Mag. They make them in 30-06, which would be nicer because the longer neck and shoulder that could be blown out better to fit the bigger bullets, but could it be loaded to same amount of power I could get from the .300 WM. If it couldn't then would I have to drop my 400 grains and just make my biggest bullet 350 to still keep them moving reasonable speeds to drop medium-large size game.
So if a re-barrel a .300 and ream out the front of the chamber so it can fit the fatter .45 bullets it should take of pressure and headspacing issues.
But that leaves me with a problem, the don't make Handi rifles in .300 Win Mag. They make them in 30-06, which would be nicer because the longer neck and shoulder that could be blown out better to fit the bigger bullets, but could it be loaded to same amount of power I could get from the .300 WM. If it couldn't then would I have to drop my 400 grains and just make my biggest bullet 350 to still keep them moving reasonable speeds to drop medium-large size game.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
You need to use a belted or rimmed case to headspace it in the chamber.
A blown-out rimless case, like the 30-06, will have no method of setting the headspace except on the case mouth, like a .45 ACP.
And that is not nearly precise enough for a high-pressure rifle round.
Anyway, having a .30 cal barrel bored out & re-rifled for .45 cal will cost you way more then the rifle cost.
rc
A blown-out rimless case, like the 30-06, will have no method of setting the headspace except on the case mouth, like a .45 ACP.
And that is not nearly precise enough for a high-pressure rifle round.
Anyway, having a .30 cal barrel bored out & re-rifled for .45 cal will cost you way more then the rifle cost.
rc
Because I want something with a large range in bullet weight. And I don't think the .460, although I'm not very familiar with the round, has a bullet weight range 150 gr to 350-400 gr bullets, correct?
RC, blow out was a poor choice in wording. I meant more like neck up so it can fit the .45, but it would still a little shoulder. That's why the longer neck and shoulder would be better because you could widen it out and still have the neck/shoulder, although narrower, for better headspacing then on the mouth.
It's not the larger size I want but the smaller ones. I live in south eastern Missouri where everything can be easily taken with a 30-30, I don't want the load to pulverize my coyotes and whitetail does. The heavier bullets are for A. the fact that the round could do it and B. If I ever get to go on my Alaskan trip.
There is no magic here. If your wildcat and whatever twist rate you select will handle the light and heavy bullets other similar rounds are going to handle them. 150s sound unreasonable. The don't even load those in .45 ACPs.
The .460 sounds like it makes a lot more sense for what you're trying to accomplish. And you could use/play around with the variety of .45 cases for different loads. .45 Schofield cases for light loads. On up the ladder. IDK about getting all that to feed in a bolt gun. A single shot would be easy.
The .460 sounds like it makes a lot more sense for what you're trying to accomplish. And you could use/play around with the variety of .45 cases for different loads. .45 Schofield cases for light loads. On up the ladder. IDK about getting all that to feed in a bolt gun. A single shot would be easy.
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Hatt,
Your right the 150 is a little small and the 400 is a little big but I'm just showing what the full range of bullets it is capable of using, and I know at least two companies that make 150 grain bullets, Alleigence and Terminal Shock. And the entire purpose of the cartridge have ONE round do it all, not 4. Another thing is the fact that the .460 is a pistol round and doesn't really come in any rifles that aren't Expensive so i wold ahve to go through all the same processes and it might not be able to fire all four of the previously mentioned rounds. I'm not trying to shoot you down and the .460 maybe perfect for you but I want to use my own and see if it works. Plus more importantly I just want a round I can call my own.
Your right the 150 is a little small and the 400 is a little big but I'm just showing what the full range of bullets it is capable of using, and I know at least two companies that make 150 grain bullets, Alleigence and Terminal Shock. And the entire purpose of the cartridge have ONE round do it all, not 4. Another thing is the fact that the .460 is a pistol round and doesn't really come in any rifles that aren't Expensive so i wold ahve to go through all the same processes and it might not be able to fire all four of the previously mentioned rounds. I'm not trying to shoot you down and the .460 maybe perfect for you but I want to use my own and see if it works. Plus more importantly I just want a round I can call my own.
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
No, it won't.
The 30-06 case base and the .45 ACP case mouth are exactly the same size, .473".
If you expand a 30-06 case to fit a .452" bullet, it will be a straight case .473" from one end to the other with no shoulder.
About .35 caliber is the largest caliber you can use a 30-06 case for, and still have a headspace shoulder left that is big enough to work and hold against firing pin impact.
rc
witchhunter
Member
You will still need a new barrel that is the caliber of the bullets that you choose to use. You can't buy a .300WM and do this to it. You could barrel it to .429 to take advantage of the .44 magnum bullet selection, but that would be a .444 marlin.
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