.454 Casull or .44 Mag to reload

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codefour

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OK, This is going to be a weird question. I thought I would ask the inmates of the high road for advice..

I am going to purchase a new hand cannon. Recently, we have had run ins with bears in No. California.... Yes, a bear ripped apart a couple of ice chests in a camp ground right next to ours. But here is the catch.. I usually camp off the back of my motorcycle. Therefore, I am in the market for a new magnum caliber revolver. I want it to have a four inch or shorter barel in stainless. It will be either a S&W or a Ruger (I am not starting a S&W vs Ruger debate).

I like the loads of the .454 Casull. Yet I know the .44 is much more common. I have also noticed the .44 mag dies can also reload .44 special. Can the .454 Casull dies load .45 colt..? I was thinking the cases may be justa touch too long to adapt to the .45 Colt. So, do I have to buy both .454 and .45 Colt dies?

Does anyone have any experience loading both.? What are your thoughts. In all reality, I am going to shoot 99.9% plinking with the gun. Thanks for any help in advance. This reloading forum is really a great place that has helped me greatly.
 
44 mag brass is going to be alot cheaper, but the 44 just isn't comparable to the 454, just as the 454 is not comparable to a 500 S&W.

The nice thing about the 454 is that you can download it to 45 ACP levels and use 45 ACP bullets for plinking. Just seat them flush with the case mouth and use ACP data.
 
Caliber and barrel length and pepper spray

Thanks for asking our advice.

Most 45 Colt dies can load 454 Casull and also Casull Dies and load 45 Colt with no problem. But it is best to check with the manufacturer first, just to make sure the length of the die body and the threads will work for you. There are a lot of 45 Colt dies out there produced before the 454 was popular. The dimensions of your press will make a difference, too.

Now, the .460 S&W is another leap up in length. I hear it often has problems reaching the 45 Colt case mouth, but cannot attest to it myself.

If you have trouble with the length of the dies, you can save a little money by buying a partial set. The sizing/decapping die is not critical for case length. So, you could buy a good set of Tungsten Carbide dies for 454 or 460 and a cheap set of steel dies (or a set without the sizing/decapping die) for 45 Colt. The dies for case mouth belling die, seating and crimping are made of the same tool steel for all the different sets, differing only in the length of the die body. That is, only if you wind up having an issue with the die body length anyway. If not, don't worry about two sets of bell/seat/crimp dies. It is just a contingency plan.

If you load your own, 454 is no problem. But if you load your own, a hot 45 Colt in an adequately strong gun will do very well without the added expense of the 454 Casull stamp on your barrel. Dick Casull did most of his load development in 45 Colt cases.

Personally, I carry a 7.5" SRH in 454 Casull, but if encountering a bear in the woods, given the time to choose, I will use the pepper spray first. Across the Arctic over the last 20 years or so, spray has a far better record than firearms in preventing and mitigating injuries to humans in DLP (defense of life or property) situations. Besides, there is no faster way to ruin a good fishing trip than to interrupt it with a trip to the troopers to report shooting a bear. Then, you are responsible for preserving the skull and hide and you don't even get to keep the cape. AK Troopers take DLP shoots seriously and investigate most of them thoroughly. It's worse if you only wound a bear.

The short barrel (of the Ruger's Alaskan model, 2.5") is handy, especially when riding a bike, but the extra 5" over the Alaskan short barrel makes a difference in controllability, velocity and sighting (though sighting at 20 feet on a charging bear is not usually an issue). It never made (ballistic) sense to me to put a tube only 3/4 inch longer than the cartridge.

That is, the cartridge is just a little longer than 1 3/4". There is 2 1/2" of barrel in front of the bullet nose. From the base of the bullet (inside the case) to the muzzle of the barrel (probably about 3" to 3 1/8"). The space inside the case (from web to bullet base) is probably about 1 1/4" long. Expansion ratio for acceleration of the bullet is about 2.5:1, then. Your cylinder and slug dimensions will vary that calculation. Doubling or tripling the barrel length adds considerably to that ratio.

A low expansion ratio wastes a lot of the energy. (Check out the web site "BallisticsByTheInch.com")

Good luck. Enjoy your Summer.

Lost Sheep

P.S. While I was composing 918v posted, mentioning the 45 ACP (power level). Thre are a number of gunsmiths who can modify Rugers (and others) to take 45 ACP cartridges in moon clips without giving up their abilities to take loose ammo on 45 Colt and 454 Casull. I haven't done it, but imagine 45 ACP moon clips are a lot of fun and a lot cheaper.

P.P.S.

Possibly of note is that 454 brass is about three times the price of 44 or 45 Colt brass.
 
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It's not a big deal, but would like to point out that in revolvers the barrel length is measured without including the cylinder length, so there really is 2.5" in front of the bullet in the Alaskan, not just 3/4".

In autoloaders, the barrel is measured breech to muzzle.

Edit: And to avoid thread hijacking: I'm in exactly the same pickle as you. I am wanting a hand cannon, and cannot decide between 44 and 454. As of today, I think I decided upon a Super Redhawk in 454 based on a couple observations. Commercially loaded 45 Colt from some hot loaders is pretty much the same muzzle energy as 44 Mag. 454 is MUCH more powerful that 44 Mag. The guns are about the same price (for the 7.5" versions, I think the Alaskans are more).

To add to that, the BFR in 45-70 has been singing its siren's song for me as well. Matching that with an 1895G would be just what the doctor ordered.
 
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The advantage of a 454 Casull is power so what is the logic in buying one and then downloading it? Also, though you can safely shoot 45 Colt cartridges in a 454 Casull chamber, since they're shorter, hot gasses will erode the chamber distal to the 45 Colt case eventually causing hard ejection of 454 Casull cases when using full house loads.

If I were looking purely for a bear self defense cartridge, I'd probably go with a 44 Magnum and not load it down. Really, it's enough as more than one bear has found out and ammo is cheaper. If you're worried about penetration, go with a hard cast bullet or with the Barnes Buster bullet.

By the way, I've used bullets intended for 45 ACP loads in 460 S&W Magnum loads with no downloading with no problem.
 
I've used bullets intended for 45 ACP loads in 460 S&W Magnum loads with no downloading with no problem.
Click to expand...

You will wear out the forcing cone in a short order if you use soft core bullets at 460 pressures.
 
It was probably a black bear and those can be scared away rather easily. They're not looking for a fight.

If you have to ask which one to get, you probably need a .357. Which is plenty for black bears anyway.
 
Grumulkin said:
Also, though you can safely shoot 45 Colt cartridges in a 454 Casull chamber, since they're shorter, hot gasses will erode the chamber distal to the 45 Colt case eventually causing hard ejection of 454 Casull cases when using full house loads.
Click to expand...

I've not found this to be the case with my Ruger Alaskan.
 
You can have guns in California camp grounds??
You can shoot cute little Smokey the Bear in California camp grounds?

Imagine that!

rc
 
Just a note on transporting a handgun via motorcycle. You may be violating one of CA's million and a half gun laws. I once got rousted in L.A. county by a couple of cops with nothing better to do. I walked out of a gunstore and put two packages in my saddle bags, one had ammo and went in one bag, the other had a new gun and went in the other bag. Bike was parked directly in front of the shop door. Cops saw this and soon I was leaning on the hood of the squad car. About 45 minutes later, after searching me, my bike, and running a check on me, I was let go with a stern "warning". The cops could not answer (would not answer) my questions on what is the legal way to transport firearms via motorcycle! So, check first, before you go bike camping with a gun...
 
Thanks for all the rsponses. Yes, I have a .357 magnum S&W 686 (great gun). I am not really worried about carrying a concealed and loaded weapon. I am in law enforcement (yikes, why did I say that).

I am going to get the .454 Casull. I like the versatility of the .454 / 45 Colt and ACP loads. Thanks for all the input. Once again, this forum rocks.
 
A .454 Casull will not shoot .45 ACP ammo.
No rim to keep it from falling in!

It won't work with .45 Auto-Rim cases as used in .45 ACP chambered revolvers either, as the rims are too thick to fit in the gun.

I have a .357 magnum S&W 686
Click to expand...
Your .357 loaded with proper hard-cast SWC hunting ammo will kill Smokey the camp-ground black bear just as dead as fast as a .454.

And you can probably shoot it better & faster if need be.

rc
 
I believe the OP is referring to downloading the .454 to .45 ACP levels. I would suggest not trying to just use .45 ACP data. Trailboss .45 Colt loads would do the trick very nicely, esp. with the cheap bulk cast bullets. Should make for a very nice practice load.

Also remember you do not need to amp the slugs up to maximum Casull levels, esp. for black bear. The rage involved is very short and a heavy hardcast slug will penetrate right through any black bear even at moderate .45 Colt +p velocities. Keith style slugs should do very well.
 
Huge case capacity difference between the two. And typically very different rounds shot. It's not really a safety issue but I think you'll find better results going with a "cowboy" level cast bullet .45 Colt data for your light Casull loads, as compared with a stumpy FMJ .45 ACP load data. But I never tried shooting ACP type bullets from the .45 Colt or Casull so who knows.
 
45 ACP in Casull chambers-here's how.

rcmodel said:
A .454 Casull will not shoot .45 ACP ammo.
No rim to keep it from falling in!

It won't work with .45 Auto-Rim cases as used in .45 ACP chambered revolvers either, as the rims are too thick to fit in the gun.

Your .357 loaded with proper hard-cast SWC hunting ammo will kill Smokey the camp-ground black bear just as dead as fast as a .454.

And you can probably shoot it better & faster if need be.

rc
Click to expand...
Wild West Guns in Anchorage does a conversion on Ruger Super Redhawks that allows use of 45 ACP in the Casull WITH MOON CLIPS.

Operation of the gun with loose ammo, 454 Casull and 45 Colt is not compromised.

There are several other gunsmiths doing the same modifications, but WWG is thje only ones I have personally handled.

I cannot attest to the issue of Auto-rim, but looking at the dimensions of the cartridge I suspect you might be right. Though I would try it . Very likely you would have to dish the entire back of the cylinder and then headspacing of the rimmed 45 Colt and 454 Casull cartridges would be improper, requiring use of moon clips on all ammunition.

But I know for a fact that properly modifying the rear of the cylinder/ejection star does allow use of 45 ACP, 45 Colt and 454 Casull interchangeably, 45 ACP in moon clips and the others individually as normal.

Respectfully,

As far as using 45 ACP power levels in the much more voluminous 45 Colt and 454 Casull cases, it can be done safely with the correct powders. However, you will probably experience more velocity variation unless you keep the powder back near the primer with a filler of some kind. My friend and I tried this with light loads in his 500 S&W. 10% velocity variation was common with our experiments. It will keep your chambers cleaner, though than using a short case in the long chamber.

Lost Sheep
 
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First .454 loads

I just put up my first loads for my new Freedom Arms Model 83. 30.0 grains of W296 under a 240 grain Hornady XTP-MAG bullet:

2804711650053667879S600x600Q85.jpg


As to the laws in California, yes you can pack (open or concealed) in National Forest Campgrounds. State and National parks is another story. With CCW, you can now carry concealed in State and National Parks.

Transportation of handguns on motorcycles (or in private airplanes) is not covered specifically by any California Code.

The California Rifle and Pistol Association publishes a "Summary of California Gun Laws & Basic Safety Rules" that is invaluable in attempting to understand the miriad of California gun laws.

No affiliation but available here:

http://www.crpa.org/showpages.asp?pid=1010

Having a California CCW I am exempt from many of the restrictions.

Dan
 
No way you can use the .45AR, .45Colt and .454 Casull in the same cylinder. You can cut one for the AR but once you do, you can no longer shoot any other rimmed cartridge. If you want a small capacity case to work in a .454, just use the .45S&W. However, if you're gonna practice at that level, you might as well just buy a .44Mag and shoot .44Spl's in it. Your choices are far more diverse and varied. Seriously, if you need to practice with powderpuff loads, you probably won't be able to do enough shooting with full .454 loads to become proficient with it. So what's the point? Just buy a smaller, somewhat lighter and more efficient .44. I don't know why everybody thinks they need a .454, .460 or .500 to kill a critter. 99% of all situations encountered can be handled with a 250-260gr cast bullet at 900-1000fps in the .44Spl and .45Colt.
 
I beg to differ

I own a Freedom Arms 454 Casull and a Super Redhawk chambered in 454 Casull and have fired 45 Colt as well as 454 Casull in both.

I have it on good authority that the 460 S&W will chamber and fire (safely) 45 Schofield, 45 Colt (also often called 45 Long Colt) and 454 Casull.

I have seen and handled guns (but never fired) that have been modified to chamber and fire 45 ACP cartridges in 45 Colt and in 454 Casull chambers.

Dick Casull in the 70's did a lot of his load development in the 45 Colt case and then created his 454 Casull cartridge case to prevent the 454 Cases from being chambered in 45 Colt guns, just exactly as .357 Mag will not fit into 38 Special guns and 44 Mag will not fit in 44 Special or 44 Russian guns.

Check out these web sites for more discussion about the 45 ACP modifications.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...-clip-conversion-45-colt-45-acp-use-rimz.html

These folks will do the machining for $80 to $100
http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp
where they attest:

.45 LC cylinders can be cut to shoot both ACP and LC

*S&W recessed cylinders $100.00

Ruger, SP101, GP100, Security & Speed -six, .38/.357, Redhawk & Super Redhawk, .44, .45LC, .454, .480,
*The .454 conversion can allow you to shoot .45acp, .45LC and .454 Casull in a single conversion. $85.00


Colt, Anaconda .44, .45LC, Trooper & Python .38/.357 - $85.00

this thread talks about it, too
http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-273687.html

and this site has a video
http://www.moonclips.com/
go straight to the video here
http://www.moonclips.com/content/machine.asp
The end of the video shows dropping moonclipped cartridges into the cylinder as well as dropping individual cartridges into the cylinder's chambers.

Lost Sheep

Sorry to get off the original focus of the thread, but I thought it worthwhile to correct the misperception that 45 ACP cannot be chambered and fired in (a properly modified 45 Colt chambered) double-action revolver. And the gun keeps its full functionality with loose 45 Colt ammunition, too.
 
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Huge case capacity difference between the two.
Click to expand...

There is a very small difference in capacity between the two if you load both to the same OAL.

I have done this with good results by seating 45 ACP bullets flush with the case mouth in Casull brass, even a little below flush.
 
Well, I'll chime in. If you want a 454, get one. You can download a 454 just the same as downloading a 44mag. .451/.452 bullets are just as easy to find for handloading and you can use the same powders as a 44mag. I wish that there was a Smith and Wesson available in 454 Casull without getting the monsterous x frame. I have an Alaskan in 454. I love it. It is plenty accurate for playing. I've quoted this load many time. I use 250 g Hornady XTP bullets over 11g of Universal. I get 1050 fps. Not even near a max load. Heck, there are even 250g LSWC bullets that look just like the 240g LSWC bullets used in 44mags for target practice. I wouldn't even bother with 45 colt brass. If you buy 454 brass and don't max load it, you'd be hard pressed to wear it out with good handloading practices, i.e. not too much flare when loading. So if you handload, and like the Alaskan, why NOT go with the 454 or the 44mag? If the little extra you might have to pay for components is hard to swallow, then I'd assume a $800 gun is a stretch too.
 
worthwhile to correct the misperception that 45 ACP cannot be chambered and fired in (a properly modified 45 Colt chambered)
Click to expand...
All I was trying to say in the first place was, you can't use .45 ACP or .45 AR in an unmodified .454 gun.

I think that was what the OP said he planned to do.

Of course, you can modify the cylinder to accept moon-clipped .45 ACP ammo, .45 AR ammo, and probably 38 Spl too!
If you want to spend enough money on after-market chamber adaptors and cylinder moon-clip conversions!

rc
 
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