.45ACP 230gr Hardball vs. 230gr JHP

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BenjaminR

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I currently carry Winchester 230gr. JHP for my personal defense round in my Springfield GI. I was wondering if the 230gr. Hardball (WWB) is suitable as an everyday CCW round also. Probably the only reason why I'm not carrying it now is because I'm concerned about overpenetration. So my question is, would you carry 230gr Hardball (WWB) for your personal defense round or is that job better left to the JHP brother? I just don't want the bullet going thru the BG and hitting a GG. :uhoh:
 
The JHP is pretty much an upside without a downside, as long as you know it will feed reliably in your gun. You need to test that thoroughly. Otherwise, you will have a JHP that, if it expands, will transfer a lot of energyto target, and if it doesn't expand, will function similarly to ball ammo. So, your worst-case JHP scenario is similar to your standard ball ammo scenario.

This assumes quality JHPs of similar weight to the ball ammo in question.

Mike
 
I'm not too concerned about 230gr JHP...I already pack it. I'm more interested in the use of the Hardball ammo for everyday carry. Is it too risky to use for personal defense due to the chance of overpenetration? Does anyone here use 230gr Hardball for their personal defense round?

Benjamin
 
OK...here's a batter question, then: what are you trying to achieve by using hardball? I mean, sure...it will work. Ask the Moros. Or the Germans. Or the Japanese. Or the- you get the picture. But PDs and everyone else who can uses JHPs for a reason.

Mike
 
That thread on the rugerforum was a pretty good read...I guess I might as well stick with my 230gr JHP.
 
Does anyone here use 230gr Hardball for their personal defense round?
Sure...Ask Clint Smith....The late Skeeter Skelton had his reasons...This thing about going through your house and Aunt Tillie's bungalow is way over-hyped. Be more concerned about studies that show that many JHP's and these exotic PD ammo are not giving you the mushroom you desire....:eek:
When you miss, there are other bad-things at work....:cool:
You want 101% reliability when "all hell breaks loose"...
 
FMJs have been getting the job done for nearly 100 years. If your gun doesn't feed JHPs reliably, then go with the FMJs. Given the choice, I prefer JHPs, and in +P.
 
consider that the .45 was developed in response to the need for a more powerful and rapid firing sidearm when the issue arms failed to stop large Maori warriors that wore salt-water cured water buffalo vests or 'body armor' and also many of them carried shields with the same leather covering a wood frame. the .38 da revolver issued at the time just did not have enough 'punch' to penetrate this 'armor'. I've many times shot the acp hardball full mc slugs into homemade 14 ga. steel targets and compared the impact dent to .357 mag (usually as much or more than the .357) but not as much as .44 mag (heavy loads with jacketed sp slugs usually penetrated completely) and outdid the .40 S&W round and 9mm and .380 completely.
 
This subject comes up on just about every gun forum every 6 months or so and I always enjoy reading them and getting everyone's opinions. I also see this discussed at length in many magazines and books so it is a subject worth listening to. I have read that Jeff Cooper, Clint Smith, and possibly Chuck Taylor all used 230 gr. hardball in their carry guns. Can anyone confirm this?
One of them was quoted as saying,

"There are only 3 things important in a carry gun:
1. Reliability
2. Reliability, and
3. Reliability."

I still rely on Federal 230 gr. H.S. (JHP) in my carry guns that have tested 100% reliable with them. On the other hand, I would not at all feel handicapped with 230 gr. ball.

As far as the penetration issue, that would be a major problem with hardball in an apartment/public building environment. Many recommend frangible ammo (Magsafe or Glasers) for situations like that.
 
This is one of the best posts I've seen on this subject and is worth repeating here. It was posted by Iowagan on the RugerForum.net:


"Well, everyone has their own opinion so I'll take the other side. Here's the basic requirements of self defence as related to bullets:

1. The bullet must be accurate enough to hit what you are aiming at.
2. The bullet must function and feed reliably in your gun.
3. The bullet must create a large wound channel.
4. The bullet must penetrate far enough to inflict great bodily harm.
5. The bullet should not overpenetrate.

Let's look at theses one at a time.
1. Most guns will be equally accurate with either a FMJ or JHP. Dead heat.
2. Most guns feed more reliably with FMJ than any other type of bullets. FMJ wins.
3. A FMJ will create a large wound channel, often more terminal than a JHP. Reason: Tests done by the Government and independent labs prove a JHP will not "open up" reliably until velocities of 1000 fps are achieved. That rules out all 45 ACP factory JHPs except 185 gr bullets. Typical velocities for a 230 gr is 850 fps. 925 fps for a 200 gr and 1000 fps for a 185 gr JHP. Actually, on human flesh, there is very little difference in wound channels between a FMJ or JHP. Yes, JHPs do open up nicely on a wet phone book but I've never seen a wet phone book attack. Dead heat.
4. A 230 gr FMJ rates at the top of the list for proper penetration. A 230 gr FMJ will penetrate through winter clothing, a JHP that opens up probably won't. Depth of a wound is just as important as diameter of a wound. the 230 gr FMJ wins, hands down.
5. A 230 gr FMJ seldom punches through a "center mass" hit and even if it did, the bullet would not have enough energy left to do much damage. If a JHP does open up, it will "under penetrate" and not make a deep enough wound channel. If it doesn't open up, it will be no different than a FMJ. Believe it or not, this is pretty much a dead heat with a slight edge to FMJ.

Guess which bullets are in my 45 ACP Commander?

Now if you are talking about a lighter 9mm bullet driven to 1200 fps, then the opposite is true in 2-5 above as RNettles posted. This is exactly why the military and law enforcement made such a big mistake going with the 9mm cartridge. The diameter, weight, and velocity of a 45 ACP FMJ bullet makes it one of the all time best self defense, police, and military cartridges ever designed. Maybe that's why a the 45 ACP has passed the test of time for 96 years. Granted, the 9mm has been around just as long but has a poor reputation for wound channel and over penetration. Some think the magazine capacity makes a 9mm better. The studies say different. A typical 45 ACP 230 gr FMJ has an 85% chance of a one shot center mass knock down. Two shots increase the odds to 95%. A 9mm 115gr FMJ has a 45% chance of a 1 shot knock down and only a 70% chance with two shots. If you do the math, the 45's 8 round capacity has a much higher odds of knocking down multiple "targets" than a 9mm with 16 round capacity. Now when you change to a JHP in a 9mm, the performance increases to a 60% chance with a one round center mass hit and 80% with two round hits. Now the odds would be about even with a 9mm high capacity magazine.

These numbers aren't mine or something I just made up. They are well documented by military and other Government agencies as a result of lengthy studies by the US Dept of Justice. I used to work there."
 
I have carried 1911's loaded with 230gr hardball and 230gr JHP's, and feel comfortable with both. Assuming that the pistol is reliable with the JHP's that is. That being said, my Colt Commander is currently loaded with 230gr Federal Hydra-Shoks, but when I go out in the woods with a .45 Auto, it is usually loaded with hardball, specificly 230gr Hornady JFPs(Jacketed Flat Points).
 
Why exclude one for the other ???

I carry both .......I alternate FMJ with JHP's in my magazines. You never know what you might have to shoot through.......and sometimes hardball ammo is just what you need --- to gain that extra punch.

Windshield glass comes to mind.

The reasons for the above are strictly for penetration properties............ when it come to lethality remember 3 things :
1.A pistol shoots a pistol cartridge
2. A Pistol shoots a Pistol Cartridge
3. A Pistol shoots a Pistol cartridge !!!!!!

So I teach the proper reaction to an attack........is to use "Over-Whelming" force. This means a 2 second "burst response" of 6 rounds from a semi-auto pistol [ of your choice ]. If one thing I have learned working with firearms in the real world .... is to always expect the un-unusal as the "NORM" when it comes to bullet penetration in a human body. My students are taught to NEVER rely on one or two bullets to save theirs lives. 6 rounds - tactical reload - then assess the situation. This takes a whopping 2 to 3 seconds. Yes, every CCW weapon or Home defense weapon require a second loaded [ ready to go ] magazine. Reloading should be a built-in "motor memory" response to a 6 shot discharge.

Close combat distances require the above response --- 10 to 15 feet and all bullets are required to hit a 12" circle with the pistol never being allowed more than 3 inches above the shooters waist band. Women seem to catch on to this point shooting technique VERY well.

The point I am trying to make ....it matters very little the type of bullet you shoot [ with todays +P ammo ] ................ but it is the Placement and "Volume" of accurate fire you are able to produce that will save your life.

Just a personal Opinion from years of observation and practice..........

JF.
 
Old H.P. or new H.P.?

If you were using old (more than ten-fifteen years) ammo, I'd say that you were going 50/50 with a .45acp whether you carried FMJ or HP. Handgun bullets have been developed, however, that will expand somewhat reliably at delivery velocities. Sure, they're never going to be the perfectly mushroomed beauties we see in the gun rags, but they'll work.
 
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