.45ACP brass issues

[CMV]

Loading mixed HS brass. Running into problems with oversize ID at the mouth.

WIN, FED, CCI, & others are fine, but I had some TZZ & RP that were giving me issues. .451 bullets going into the case all the way down with just my thumb. Some would go a good way in & stop, but after loading, a firm push against the bench would make them move in another .005 - .015.

After a while I noticed that there was no resistance on the expander die - it felt like I was running the press with no die at all. On those, sometimes the bullet would go all the way in with just my fingers, others it just went in a little like a normally expanded case. Most cases I felt the expander die contacting the brass - it was just these certain ones.

Most all the TZZ 85 HS was that way. About 1/4 of the RP. Measuring the ID of some, they were .4505 - .451. Double checking the Hornady HAP & they were always .451.

Thought maybe I could save some with the Lee FCD. Some would still push in & others would not.

I tried running a few through the FL sizing die a couple more times rotating the case & running again. The expander still didn't touch them.

I tried crimping the empty case, then expanding, then seating, then FCD and that didn't work and caused a couple to split.

Other than trashing the rest, is there a way to identify that upfront? I hate that I'm prepping & putting primers into cases that I can't then load - or have to take apart because there is no tension. I can sort out the TZZ HS & just trash it all since there isn't that much, but I have lots of RP mixed in with everything else.

I'm using Lee carbide dies. Would a different FL die do any better? Don't know how it would because they all have the same OD - it's the ID that's the problem which suggests the brass is particularly thin on these troublesome cases.

This mixed lot of brass was given to me (so I shouldn't complain) as 1x or 2x fired, but after seeing some RA42 headstamps I would assume there are many more firings on some of it - but a lot seemed brand new.

 

[tlen]

Hard to tell from you description if the problem is a worn sizing die or not enough crimp. Crimp should be .469-.471" for .45 ACP. I always use a FCD.

 

[rcmodel]

TZZ I have no experiance with.
But RA42 GI brass I would almost bet is not out of spec.

If they have no neck tension after sizing, but before expanding?
I would say your sizing die is too big and not sizing them down far enough.

I just sized a Rem case in my RCBS die and it measures .465" O.D., .447" I.D. before expanding.

If your sized cases are not near .465" O.D. before expanding, regardless of neck thickness, you have an oversize sizing die.

And more crimp or FCD crimp is not the way to try to fix things.
If you don't have proper neck tension, no amount of crimp can fix it.

BTW: The .45 ACP case has .003" case taper.
If your sizing die is not adjusted all the way down to just kiss the shell holder, you may not get full sizing of the taper with some brands of dies.

rc

 

[Blue68f100]

RP is a thinner wall brass than most. So during resizing it does not size down as far as a std heaver wall brass does. There are several way to approach this. One is not use the expander die, or turn down the expander for the thinner brass. Crimp does not make up for neck tension. The FCD can actually swedges the bullet during the process making it looser. The thinner brass also impacts the taper crimp, or lick of it.

 

[hawkeye10]

Did you double check to see if the bullets were .451? I really think it's the crimp. Measure it to make sure you are getting the right taper crimp. Don

 

[chhodge69]

no - not crimp. That has very little to do with keeping the bullet in place. RC nailed it, as usual.

I don't have any of these to experiment with but have you tried weighing the bad cases? If the walls really are thin they might be light and you could cull the bad ones by weight.

 

[Captaingyro]

I noticed that there was no resistance on the expander die - it felt like I was running the press with no die at all

I tried running a few through the FL sizing die a couple more times rotating the case & running again. The expander still didn't touch them

How can this point to anything but a bad sizer die? (And, for the record, I don't know of any handgun sizer dies that are labeled "FL". Are we absolutely sure a die mixup didn't occur?)

I can think of some scenarios where other problems could be the culprit but, geez, go with the obvious first. Try a different sizer.

 

[918v]

Sort the brass.

 

[Fishslayer]

I sort by headstamp.

TZZ brass goes right in the scrap can with the Amerc. I had the same issues.

RP brass is thin. I only use it to load .452 lead bullets.

 

[rcmodel]

But the OP said he had RA42, which is old GI mil-spec brass, and it should not be thin.
I have loaded a ton of 1950's, 60's & 70's RA GI brass with no problems.

rc

 

[Walkalong]

I have loaded plenty of TZZ brass as well (IMI). No problems if your sizer sizes it down enough and the expander does not open the case mouth too much. Same goes for RP brass, which is usually the thinnest.

And, as posted, no amount of additional crimp can fix poor neck tension, and the FCD certainly can't.

 

[dragon68]

Had the same thing happen with the RP brass and berrys 200 gr hp. RP is now in the recycle can !!

 

[CMV]

Sorry I wasn't clear.

The RA42 was just fine - I only mentioned it because some of what was in this mixed lot I was given that was "1x or 2x fired" had some 70 y/o brass - assuming it has been more than a few times.

I might be calling the die the wrong thing - the sizing die - the one with the decapping pin. For the .223 set it's called a FL resize die and just assumed for the pistol calibers its called the same thing - looks identical to me.

For 90% or more of the cases - and all of the .45ACP I've done prior - the sizing die seems to work just fine.

A video would clear it up but I'm not sure how to do that with my camera. I'll get some pictures up to illustrate what I'm seeing in a few minutes.

 

[CMV]

OD of a bad case then OD of a good CCI case. Depending on how firm I am with the mic this measurement changes up to .003. That's with enough pressure to hold the case in the mic. Gently miking, I get .469 for both. If I "twirl" the case while holding it in the mic, the reading doesn't change so it's pretty much round with no flat spots. These cases have been through the sizing die but have not seen the expander die.






Base of a 230 gr Hornady HAP. I measured at least 15 & all were dead on at .451. Didn't even get a .0005 variation which is limit of precision with this mic.



These are the IDs of the 2 cases above. Add + .0015 for the pressure the mic is putting on the brass to hold it. Gently miking shows this particular TZZ at .4490 & the CCI at .4445.





Even though the ID of the TZZ is slightly smaller than the OD of the bullet, it's very easy to start it by hand and GENTLY push the bullet in this far just with my thumb & forefinger. You can see how the nose of the bullet is pushing into my thumb - that's all the pressure I'm applying.

Not EVERY TZZ case did this but about half were that bad. Not EVERY RP case did this and going back through and looking at finished rounds it was closer to 1/10 and not 1/4 like I said earlier. 1 PMC case failed the "push the nose kinda hard against the bench" test but didn't set back nearly this much and it took a lot more pressure than just pushing with my thumb. At least 100 WIN or WCC, 75 CCI, 20 Speer, 50 FC or Federal, a few Hornady, 20 RA, & 35 Starline, 40 PMC, 30 TZZ, & 100 RP make up this lot of 500.





All the other headstamps were very good. The bullet would not set back with a good push against the bench and that was with no FCD and not a strong crimp from the seating die - just enough to remove any belling and leave a slight mark. At least I don't think there is a lot of crimp there from the seating die but it's hard for a novice to judge. Going by pictures here of what you guys point out as too much/not enough/just right I think I'm pretty close to the just right category but maybe not.

 

[[email protected]]

What bullet are you using? And did you measure the bullets. I picked up some 40 cal hornady txps and my lee sizer would not size the brass enough. I was not getting enough neck tension to hold the bullet. I ended up getting an undersized sizing die and all is well.
Sorry I posted before you posted the pictures.
Make notes of which brass works and which doesnt. Then sort by headstamp. If you have enough of the brass that doesnt work you may look at getting an undersized die. If you only have a small amout of brass save it for use with lead bullets.

 

[CMV]

Oh - my sizing die hits the shellplate and the full stroke pushes the die up into the turret ring and takes out all the slack & then there's an additional ~1/8" before the stops on the linkage touch that takes a firmer pull of the handle to fully bottom out. I backed off the expander die to where it just barely opens up the mouth enough to get the bullet started. Measured at the mouth after the expander die I have .4505 ID so I'm wiggling the base of the bullet in to get it started.

I noticed something a bit odd too on the ones I put through the FCD. When you lower the ram on the powder-through expander die there's a "bump" as the case mouth exits the die to jar the die a little and knock any remaining powder into the case. The FCD gave a very similar bump on the way down. I haven't really used the FCD on pistol rounds much but never noticed that with .223 or the times I used it in the past. Don't know if that is of any relevance.

 

[CMV]

@eam3clm: 230gr Hornady HAP. Measured 15 or so & all were dead nuts .451.

The Lee die I have seems to size everything else ok - just these two headstamps. But it very well may be the culprit and should be making all the others smaller too - just these don't have the extra case wall thickness to make up for it not sizing them down enough?

 

[Walkalong]

I have four .45 ACP size dies now. Two are tight enough to use on thin brass.

My oldest RCBS really gives a serious "coke bottle" effect to loaded rounds, but you can be sure you will get no bullet setback.

My other RCBS works for anything but the thin stuff.

My Redding damages cases, and Redding says the die is "OK". (It is a replacement for one the carbide ring came out of.)

My Lyman works with all brass, and doesn't oversize things.

Four dies, four different size carbide rings.

 

[EddieNFL]

Back in the '80s years ago I was able to collect a number of M548 containers full of mostly TZZ brass ranging from '84 to '87. I use three different dies (one RCBS and two Dillon). I don't recall ever having any issues with thin case walls. I typically lose it before it splits.

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

i tried some R-P brass for .380 auto. i was loading FMJs and didn't expand at all. it was so thin that i could easily push the bullet deeper after seating, even with a fairly heavy crimp from the seating die. i tossed it all.

 

[Striker Fired]

I have two 45 ACP die sets a RCBS carbide and a Hornady New Demention,I can always notice the thin walled R-P brass and even some Blazer by the feel.Both dies require me to use the expander to get a bullet started because they are so tight.So no neck tension issues with any .
If I remember correctly,most past threads on not enough neck tension due to thin walled brass involved Lee dies.Maybe they use the thicker wall demension for figuring what ID to make their dies.Has anyone ever accurately measured the different die brands to see what sizes each uses? I mean with a inside mic,not calipers. I can measure mine that way and make a list,if others can also to compile some data.

 

[gamestalker]

As usual, RC is again on top of it again!
the crimp on an auto loading cartridge should not be construed as being a crimp at all.

 

[rcmodel]

You say "Gently miking, I get .469 for both".

From post #3.

If your sized cases are not near .465" O.D. before expanding, regardless of neck thickness, you have an oversize sizing die.

rc

 

[CMV]

Sounds like problem solved. Just need a better sizing die & I'm all set.

Since that OD is working well on everything else, am I going to be wearing out the thicker walled stuff faster because I'm pushing the brass in farther, then expanding it back out? Or is 4 thou of movement insignificant to weakening the brass prematurely?

 

[CMV]

Oh - should I try to send the one I have back to Lee because it's 'oversized' or is that their standard & I'd just get the same thing for a replacement?