45ACP SWCs Jam 1911

[drannor]

I'm still in the process of "debugging" my .45ACP target loads and hoped folks might provide some insight into issues I had yesterday at the range.

I've already shot these loads successfully through my S&W 625 as a first run test. So I moved on to the Kimber Gold Match to test things in an autoloader. The first 4 - 5 rounds would chamber and fire fine, and then inevitably later rounds with fail to feed, with the bullet hanging up on the feed ramp. To remedy I'd lock the slide back, drop the mag, extract jammed round, put jammed round back in mag, then drop slide.

In manually cycling rounds thru the pistol I notcied that some amount of bullet setback is occuring after they are chambered. I need to measure this, but didn't have my dial at the range. It occurred to me if the crimp is insufficient the bullets may be wiggling out in the magazine as I shoot, resulting in longer OAL and jamming.

Some ideas:
I need a heavier crimp?
I need to decrease OAL?
I need to try a different pistol? (CZ 97, Kimber Compact, SIG GSR?)
Try different magazines?

Thoughts? Recommendations? Is there a good way to measure crimp? I've been judging against factory loaded ammo for comparison.

I'm headed back out to the range tonight with my dial calipers and a couple different .45s. Hopefully I will have more data to report.

Background:
Ranier 200gr SWC TMJ over 4.8grs Bullseye, Win case, CCI primers, 1.265 OAL
Reloaded in Dillon 550B with RCBS dies. (Seat/Crimp with same die)

 

[steveno]

the OAL length on the round should be set so that the sharp edge of the swc is about .010 - .020 above the case mouth

 

[drannor]

the OAL length on the round should be set so that the sharp edge of the swc is about .010 - .020 above the case mouth

I'll check this when I get home, I'm using the OAL provided by Ranier so hopefully they aren't far off this.

BTW - Also purchased some Federal primers last night, as mentioned by others the CCI primers and the Dillon do not play nice together. Reloading is slowed considerably when the primer pickup comes out empty every 4th try. :banghead:

 

[oscar]

I had similar problems. You need to check the ramp and see if it needs to be polished. You also need to check on how deep your loads are seated and rather or not there is a sharp edge at the end of the case. A good taper crimp can help here.

 

[Jim Watson]

I never did get Ranier plated SWCs to feed reliably in a couple of guns set up for "#68" cast semiwadcutters. Variations in OAL and crimp did not fix it completely and I shot up what I had in practice. Back to cast SWC for practice. Can't get Precision coated SWCs now and so am loading FMJ RN for IDPA matches to ensure feeding and low smoke.

When at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
If by then you haven't gotten it, do something else

 

[Old Fuff]

There are a whole lot of possibilities - and combinations thereof. You need to check:

The cartridges: Field strip the pistol and remove the barrel. Be sure the chamber is clean. Drop one of your handloaded cartridges into it and see if the rim sticks up above the hood, or drops into the chamber below the hood. Both conditions are wrong – the case head should be even with the end of the hood. Once you have determined the right length for your barrel crimp the bullet with a good taper crimp die as a second operation after the bullet is seated. You may also have to make small changes in the powder charge.

Magazines: Your 200 grain W.C. load is shorter then 230 grain ball, so the magazine lips should release the cartridge sooner. To better understand this, obtain a copy of Jerry Kuhnhausen’s “The Colt .45 Automatic – A Shop Manual.†It can be obtained from a number of sources, including Brownells (www.brownells.com) It explains any necessary adjustments and a whole lot more.

The pistol: You may have to make some adjustments to the extractor or possibly the recoil spring, but the feed ramp and barrel throat are likely fine. Don’t touch them!

Also be sure your problem isn't a too-tight chamber that gets fouled after 50 rounds or so go down range. To check - take a cleaning rod and brass brush to the range and scrub out the bore as soon as the pistol shows signs of not feeding like it should.

 

[rbwillnj]

First of all, I agree that the shoulder of the SWC should be seated slightly above the case. The lead acts as sort of a lubricant to prevent hang up on the edge of the case. I never measured it, but about 1/16 inch should be right. The ramp should be polished on any 1911, it takes just a couple of minutes with a dremel. If your round is hanging up in the 12 O'clock position on the hood, than I think OAL may be your problem. If its hanging up on the edge of the chamber, see below.

Next, I have two Kimber Stainless Gold Matches, and a Colt Gold Cup. For lack of a better term, the funnel where the round enters the chamber is much narrower on my Kimbers than on the Gold Cup. I initally had problems with SWCs hanging up on the right edge of the chamber creating a small nick in the brass. I used a file and a dremel to widen the "funnel" and polish it so that it was much the same as my Gold Cup. Haven't had a probem since.

 

[Smythe77]

Lot of good info up there. Basically when new to reloading & especially when it comes to semi-auto center-fire we run into these problems.

The taper crip mentioned above by oscar & did that with my 9mm only after a while I no longer needed it as the regular crimping can be 100% perfect. You just need to find what belling you are giving the brass & then to find the lead to the brass or reverse is perfectly smooth. Now I never have a problem with my loads through Ponsness/Warren Metallic II presses with 45ACP, 9X19, or 38 Spl plus 44 mag loads for my lever action rifle.

I am positive the problems with the primers are something to do with your Dillon progressive reloader as something is not perfectly set up or possibly not super clean. With my three presses they are so easy to keep clean, lightely lubed (above all keep oil or oily hands away from primers) & simply flawless be it Federal, CCI, Winchester or Remington.

You are looking at one of the many challenges to all reloaders & especially is the press is new or the cartridge to the h/gun is new & different for instance you revolver of 45 VS semi-auto.

 

[45 ACP]

Here's what has worked for me in very similar circumstances:

Kimber Compact CDP. Wilson Combat magazines.

Rainier 200gr SWC plated. 4.4-4.5gr Titegroup. Federal 150LP primer. 1.250 OAL.

*** Never mind ***

For what it's worth, I have had GREAT success with 1.250 for SWC and 1.265 for RN.

Regarding crimp, the best method I have found is to use dummy rounds (no primer no powder). You already have some to manually check feeding reliability right?

Anyhow, take your calipers and measure the OAL. 1.250 - 1.255 right?

OK, take the dummy round and push the "completed" cartridge against the loading bench. Put your back into it!

Take your calipers and measure the OAL again. As long as:

Your setback is between 0.000 - 0.005
You can't wiggle the round with your fingers (too tight of a crimp!!)
Your dummy rounds aren't catching on the bottom of the barrel ramp and gouging the brass

...I would say your crimp is fine.

For bullet setback, load up dummy rounds and manually cycle them through the gun. Measure each round before and after. Using the same measurements above, verify the amount of setback (if any....) and act accordingly.

I have also tried the live fire method you described (measure rounds, shoot a few, empty magazine and measure remainder), but I have yet to find setback issues when utilizing the dummy round method effectively.

YMMV but I hope this helps!

 

[stans]

I'd go real easy on polishing an aluminum feed ramp. Aluminum receivers are given an anodized coating to give the aluminum surface hardness and resistance to scratching and gouging. Polishing can remove the anodizing and then bullets, especially hollowpoints, will begin to dig into the feed ramp and may eventually render the receiver totally unreliable.

I find that SWC's feed best when there is about 0.030" of the driving band of the bullet exposed beyond the case mouth. This translates to an OAL of around 1.235" for a 200 grain LSWC that follows the H&G 68 bullet mold.

I taper crimp my rounds to 0.469-0.470" at the case mouth. More than this can cause the case to bulge just below the case mouth and cause feeding problems. Excessive crimp does not improve case tension and case tension is what keeps bullets from being pushed deeper into the case. You might want to look at your expander die, it may be over expanding the brass.

 

[wingman]

always use a felt tip/dremel and polishing media for feed ramps, the "lee factory crimp die" works wonders, I use it for all auto reloading and beyond that point any misfeeds on the 1911 is "probably" the mag.

I use a westcoast 200gr swc, set to 1250 oal works good.

 

[steveno]

you are just asking for trouble if you mess with the feed ramp in the aluminum receiver. anodizing is at best about .0005 or so thick and if you remove it you now have dead soft aluminum for the feed ramp. then you buy another receiver

 

[drannor]

First, thanks for all the replies!

*processes*

Ok, I'll be checking the crimp for sharp edges (likely) and recrimping some rounds a bit tighter. I do have some dummy rounds for seating and crimping that I'll perform the setback test mentioned with. I'll also check the OAL against the hood of the barrel as Fuff suggested and change accordingly. (The rounds are hanging up at the 12o'clock position)

I am hesitant to polish ramps and surfaces until I've exhausted options with the rounds themselves. No worries on the aluminum receivers as I only have one .45 with an AL frame (my Kimber Compact) and do not plan to shoot SWCs in it.

If I choose to go with the Lee FCD, do I just back out the crimp die a bit and adjust the seater plug accordingly?


Primers:
I've seen a number of threads referencing issues with CCI primers and the Dillon 550B on THR. I had no issues with CCI small pistol primers for .38spl, but the large primers are a tremendous pain. The primer mechanism isn't terribly complex, and I've checked the setup a couple of times. The federal primers have worked flawlessly.

 

[Sunray]

"...as the regular crimping can be 100% perfect..." I don't taper crimp 9mm either, but 9mm ain't .45ACP. .45's feed better with a taper crimp. A slight chamfer on the back of the chamber can help too. Just remove the sharp edges on the bottom half.

 

[45 ACP]

you are just asking for trouble if you mess with the feed ramp in the aluminum receiver. anodizing is at best about .0005 or so thick and if you remove it you now have dead soft aluminum for the feed ramp. then you buy another receiver

Really? 7075-T7 soft? Interesting....

 

[stans]

Quote:
you are just asking for trouble if you mess with the feed ramp in the aluminum receiver. anodizing is at best about .0005 or so thick and if you remove it you now have dead soft aluminum for the feed ramp. then you buy another receiver



Really? 7075-T7 soft? Interesting....

The aluminum surface lacks resistance to gouging by hollowpoint bullets. Even anodized ramps can get dings in them from hollowpoint ammo, removal of the anodizing accelerates the process.

 

[Smythe77]

Once I had some dummy loads that fed with ease then I would also check my live loads till all smoothed out. Even at the range, if I had a live load that did not seat properly I would take it home & check it over for where I went wrong.

After a while I could load my 45s & 9s in perfection & never had to look back for along the earlier bit, of reloading, I was spotting very small things that were not perfect.

One good reloader of 45s, at our Club, always uses a special taper crimp yet has tried my loads & found them flawless. So obviously I have it down pat.

The polishing mentioned up above would frighten me for I have done this sort of thing with a Browning P-35 & it was a costly error.

 

[stans]

Any time you start "polishing" gun parts you can get into trouble quickly if you are not careful. Polishing is just that, polishing out machining marks and rough spots, not major league removal of metal. And remember my motto, there is no problem that can't be made worse with a Dremel!

 

[flip]

Drannor

I agree with Old Fuff. Provided that your bullets are made to spec (OAL),you have good mags, and your gun is good working order; Make Sure That Your Gun IS Clean!

My SWC reloads get shot out of about 7 differnt (my friends) 1911s (spring, multiple kimbers, sti and my LB).

I am the only one that rarley has a problem with SWC (plated or lead). When a round jams, I take a Qtip to clean the feed ramp or run a cleaning rod through the barrel and just shoot away the rest of the night without any problem.

Keep in mind that I don't clean my gun as often as I should.

flip

 

[Kruzr]

I load the Rainier 200 gr. SWC TCJ and found that if I keep the OAL to 1.250 and the crimp to .469, they feed in all my 1911's. I load 4.0 - 4.1 gr of Clays and am able to use factory spring ratings in both my Gov't and Commander size 1911's. At first I tried to follow the recommendations on the SWC shoulder above the case. Then I just ignored it and loaded based on OAL until I found the one that worked.

 

[45auto]

My experience is similiar to Kruzr. 1.25 OAL with a 200 SWC is a proven winner.

I'd go as far to say if your gun doesn't feed these 100%, something is not right with your mag and/or gun.

 

[yci]

I'd go as far to say if your gun doesn't feed these 100%, something is not right with your mag and/or gun.

I've been keeping quiet and learning a lot since I'm not nearly as knowledgable as the rest of the folks here. However I found the above statement to have been my problem when shooting SWCs in my Kimber. I discovered that this particular gun really does not like to feed SWC cartridges unless the gun itself is lubed extremely well...just this side of being dripping wet. Feeds round-nose perfectly no matter what, but gets very finicky with SWC.

Just my experience.

 

[drannor]

I increased the crimp to a measured ~.467, and decreased OAL to 1.250. This resulted in 5-6 jams across 100 rounds, versus double to triple that with my previous attempts. So progress of sorts.

The nature of the jam is different. Before the rounds were hanging up on the top of the barrel hood, at an angle of around 30 degrees, with the bullet already partially in the chamber. Last night's jams had the bullet hanging up on the feed ramp, usually resulting in gouging of the bullet from contact with the ramp. The round is not even in contact with the barrel at this point. Very different problem I think. Perhaps I should try a different recoil spring?

I clean my pistols very thoroughly after every range session, so I don't think dirt buildup is the problem. I also made a point of wiping down the feed ramp during this range visit as the bullseye is pretty dirty in comparison to the factory ammo I've shot in the past.

BTW - the rounds wouldn't feed at all in my CZ 97B, this isn't terribly surprising, but thought I would note it.

 

[Swamprabbit]

I strongly suggest you buying a Lee case headspace gauge. They are cheap and will let you know if your loads are the right dimensions. I find that I have to crimp cast SWC loads good with my Lee taper crimp die or I will have problems. Just adjust the crimp so that the loaded rounds fall in the gauge all the way without applying any pressure.

 

[45auto]

That's some progress anyway.

I've had good luck with Rainier plated, but they(any SWC plated bullet I've tried) don't feed/chamber as smooth as lead. But, they should still feed IMO.

Do you have any similiar lead bullets hanging around just to try?

Otherwise I'd go to a new mag spring or mag, particulary if it's the last one hanging up. Your mag is clean too...right!!

But, I'm not a gunsmith.